Halorin's Melee Concept

There seems to be a lot of 'controversy' over the new information shed on 1.2 melee. I've tried to come up with a concept myself and wanted to know the opinion of the ESF community. Here goes:


When you swoop at someone, mouse1 starts what I'll call a 'combo-chain,' and mouse2 will be knockback. Combo chains is essentially what what the auto-punch thing is now, but you have the hold down the button. A power struggle bar comes up, if the attacked person gets it in their favor, they either start CC'ing themselves or they can knock the person back. The struggle bar would last as long as the attacker was trying to Combo Chain the attacked player. If at all possible, I think how quickly a person breaks through in a combo-chain should be depending on where they were attacked from. If someone got head on'd, they should be able to break through in the struggle a lot quicker than say if they were hit in the back. When the player stopped the Combo Chain, the attacked player would be stunned for a moment. If the attacker hit mouse1 it would be a regular mouse2 knockback, but if they hit mouse2, then they'd do a throw which would send them as far as melee does now and do about that damage. But the stunned player could try to block or dodge. The thing to countering it is that there would be essentially two different kinds of blocking, regular blocks and dodges, so there'd be an added button in the mix. Blocking would nearly nullify whatever damage was done in a combo-chain, and it'd be up to the attacker to teleport away or they'd be set up to be hit back. Dodging would not have any effect on stopping a Combo Chain, it would only evade any knockback attacks. So say if someone went to knock back a player and they had the dodge button held down, the dodging player would automatically teleport to a favorable position with say, half the amount it costs for the teleportation so they could counter back with something. The knockbacks themselves would not really stun a player, just send them back with say, 10 damage, so the person knocking whoever back would have to be quick about moving or planning another assault or they could get hit back.


Let me know your thoughts. A lot of you have probably already seen this, but.. I don't know.

so wheres the melee?

all it is 1.1 melee with a throw buttion and some auto punches


im thinking a better system would be something that actualy takes skill to use not just fly at person and smash them up u should really be in control of the action not just trying to push it in one direction like it is now

I suppose your reading skills looked over the part where there's counters and blocks and that most of the attacks leave players within close proximation of each other so the action stays high-paced and intense. My concept has such 1.1-related ties because I don't really see how HL could handle a truely deep combo system that you'd see in say a Street Fighter'esque game. My concept I feel is simple enough to pick up, but it could be very deep with countering and dodging. Adding too much leaves too many things that could possibly be unbalanced.

At your mention of skill, I think the blocking and countering would add a LOT of skill. I also kept things in mind like having too many different attacks involved would not only clutter things up and delay development time, but for balance reasons. Also, I'd like the game to be as fast as possible, and not necassarily a game where it's moreso watched than played.

defending may take some skill but excuting a good offence doesnt

and that is where i say it takes no skill


its like esf now it takes no skill to really attack just fly at a person and hold down the buttion nothing skillfull there at all

Not everyone can melee like a homing missle, that's at least some skill. :smile:

Most of the things in ESF require 0 skill. Yet, melee is really all you need to concentrate on if you wish to be looked at as "skillfull."

Well.. I don't really see what would satisfy you, Hibiki. I mean.. What do you expect? Name a fighting game where the basic idea isn't go up to someone and hit them. I don't see that changing. Would you rather there be some three button sequence to punch someone? That sounds like what you want. My concept is skillful offensively I think in that there are advantages and disadvantages to the two different primary attacks. It could always be added upon, though. Say if whatever the ESF team had in store for deeper combo's with their auto-punches could go after where I have chain-combo'ing. But the point of my concept was to keep it fast and quick and allow players to stay in control of their actions. I don't see it possible to have 10-hit combo presses like you would see in something like Tekken. If anything else, you'd see binders all over the place pulling it too perfection with one keypress, and then there'd REALLY be no skill. So.. Care to elaborate? Or give an idea of what you want to be offensively skillful?

dbz is 90% melee so esf is made to reflect that

and thats why u have so much focus on melee because its such an important part


having less important melee would be like having tron with a disk or a lightcycle just wouldnt feel right

Well, that's just common knowledge, Hibiki. Tell me something I don't know. In DBZ, most of the melee happened at a rate so fast that there's basically no way that keypresses could be used for every punch and kick. I don't even think HL could take all that anyway, netcode wise. The Chain-Combo'ing would basically be an insanely quick series of punches, like you'd see in DBZ that would push back the attacked, unless they were blocking. Once that stopped, the player could either Chain Combo again, or use some sort of stronger attack than knockback. Freeza could use his tail like PCJoe had mentioned, other characters could have their own unique attacks. I seriously don't see any other way to implement DBZ-like fighting without slowing things down so dramatically that it doesn't feel like DBZ at all. If you have suggestions, let me know them, but don't say things without backing them up, alright? Thanks.

wow there u seem so confident i was even talking to u

and u obviously dont seem to have a grasp on the concept of an idea or a suggestion there not supost to be a perfect thing that is unarguable


u want an example of a combat system that takes skill to use well fine zoe2 pow there u go easy to use system that can be extremely skillful if ur good and very fast paced so dont say its imposible to have a game thats fast and responcive because that is just untrue

Yeah, I agree. ESF is 100% melee, of course, there are beams. Then again, those are only used as "last resorts" most of the time. Seeing that this isn't a console game, it would be nice to keep things simple in a way, yet advanced in another way. Melee can still be advanced, you can always have more then 1 option. PCjoe is all for the fast paced melee, yet he wants it advanced, so then, make it fast and advanced. Auto-hits, chain-combos, the works. Then again, swooping and hitting should also be an option. Think about it, if melee is going to be "advanced" then it should have the simplicity of 1.1. Why not? It's "advanced". Although we haven't seen melee at it's finest, we can always criticize on the information available to us, and of course have our opinions and suggestions. Melee should have it's simplicity and complexity all in one. That would make a fairly balanced game, and i'm guessing it would require skill to "own" someone with the advanced melee while they use the simple, swoop and hit. Now, isn't that skill?

I'm all for the advanced melee, but some things should be changed, and some things should be left in. (Basic melee)

I haven't played the game, to be honest, but I have heard it has some DBZ-like qualities. Since I don't know much about it, I won't say anything other than I doubt if it could be pulled off with the Half-Life engine. At least my concept takes things from the ESF team's concept with auto-punching and could be feasibly added to the game. It would be a matter of implementing already current code in a different way with things like the knockback and the auto-punches that are already in game. Also, being original could never hurt, eh? ESF melee as it is now is original, so why change that. And even another thing, I doubt whatever combo system there may be in ZoE could be put onto a keyboard in a fun manner and have it work with a netcode that could accomodate people playing with a 200+ ping. But hey, I may be wrong.


"Suitcase."

MyStiX said:

I'm all for the advanced melee, but some things should be changed, and some things should be left in. (Basic melee)

Click to expand...

no way thats the worst idea ever basic melee is just plain stupid and cheap it takes no skill and no effort to use just point and click not to mention the insane damage and the knockback if u had basic melee with advanced melee no one would use advanced melee because its not as cheap as basic melee

really mystix u need to accept the fact that melee and swooping is gonna be changed

Hmm.. I don't think Hibiki here understands logical text. Don't think of knockbacks how they are now in 1.1, buddy. When I referred to mouse2 knocking people back, I meant maybe like, 1/3 of the distance they go back now, and probably 1/3 of the damage. This would keep action quick and crisp. It's best usage would be to hold one player off while you were fighting another if you ever got 2 on 1'd. If you want Ji Kune Do in air, tell me exactly how it could be done with an engine half a decade old. Tell me how it could work in advanced situations such as 2 on 1's. Tell me why would someone take the time to combo the hell out of someone for however long you wish to specify to make it 'advanced', because the time in my concept would be seconds, when they could just charge a Kame and do more to more people in a shorter amount of time. You gotta stay focused, Hibiki. HL couldn't handle knowing what a medium kick was, what a roundhouse was, what a low block was, or anything specific like that. I don't want to go out and buy a joystick with a yoke, throttle, and missle-firing flipswitches to melee, but I do want quick-paced fun. That's what ESF is now, and that's what I want it to continue to be. If the ESF team is looking for simulation in melee, then they may as well not call it a DBZ mod, or they may as well disable beams as we know them, because it's a conflict of interest, if you ask me.

Suitcase.

I know it is, but then, it can be changed, yet still be left in. Like what Halorin said about being hit 1/3 back and reducing damage to 1/3 of what it is.

For example:

Swoop and hit... the damage can be reduced. I'm trying to make things so, everyone has a more comfortable way of playing. Not everyone is happy that melee is being changed, some newbies today STILL don't understand melee. Isn't that kinda "un-fair"? Advanced should have the basic melee as well, why not? Some people would actually prefer basic melee than the advanced. Then, skill might just be a factor in ESF.

oh no u will have to be on the same level as people who started!!

get over it melee is changing and the skills u have now wont help u do good on the new melee system because it is better and more fun


and halorin if thats ur opinion ur really gonna find advanced melee impossible to grasp if u think hl cant handel fancy moves

Well, if you mean fancy in high kicks and roundhouses and junk like that at different keypresses, then perhaps I'm wrong indeed! As a matter of fact, I was snooping around, and I found a picture of what I think Hibiki wants.

http://www.gamespy.com/e32002/image.asp?/e32002/xbox/sb/7.jpg

I think this is something more his idea of what melee should be. I want to feel like I'm in control of an insanely quick dragon ball z character, not a slow-walking mech/rock'em sock'em robot.

I guarantee I'll adapt to 1.2, in whatever incarnation it may be. PcJoe, and most everyone else seems to think my melee concept has skillful and fun merit, except for the guy who can't even spell words in his own sig correctly. I guess "Thoes" are the kinds of guys I need to try to convince. Ah well.

I won't try to jackhammer through adamatium anymore. Have whatever opinion you want, Hibiki. I'll reserve mine and you can reserve yours.

Now let's get back on topic. I want some other people's opinions!

Hal's idea :yes: :laff:

but me wants to see the finished 1.2 system as it stands to be right now.

see this is my point u seem to think everything needs to be complex to do fancy moves

and i guarentee the way advanced melee is set up atm it uses no extra keys for melee and still manages to deliver all that kick ass stuff



so if u cant accept that then u will have problems playing esf because thats what it is

Make some sense, Hibiki.. Please. Just because I have my own idea of what melee should be like doesn't mean I wouldn't be alright with someone else's, namely the ESF team's. If you have nothing of your own to contribute other than dumb references to Tron and games nothing like ESF itself, then just stop posting altogether. It's old now, really old. Stay on topic. Your opinion's been posted. The end.

hmm.. quite a war going on here.. any who..
how about I just say this quick..

Our current melee system which we just came up with allows us to do more than what your system does. you just go in and attack.. our system allows us to do more such as specialized combos. Since we charge ours up, we can decide what combo we want executed.

in yours.. you just whack the guy, nothing really worth seeing. I had another idea what would quicken the pace, but if we cant visualize it.. we wont do it.

Anyway... your melee idea isnt to bad.. but the way we have it now just gives us more possibilites than yours can offer