Halorin's updated melee concept.

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Alright, now.. Here's a little disclaimer:

Most of these ideas are my own, but certain things like the charged swooping and the melee powerstruggles are just ideas I took my take on that I've seen from other people. I don't know exactly who had the charged swoop idea, but thanks. Also, I've already shown the team this, and I know that the timing for the comboes is pretty quick, so that would be changed. I just never updated the file. And uh.. I talked to Joe and Masta, and they said they'd see about including some of this, but they never really said what. I just wanted to know the community's opinion. This is basically me just taking what the team said and what some people said, and then trying to make them all come together so everyone's happy. This isn't to put down the team's idea, since it's actually just a modified form of it. So.. all that aside, here we go.

*And please do not post unless you have read what you're posting about in detail. I don't want to have to be put in a position where I say, if you read this part, you'd understand.*


ESF Outline:
Concepts by: Halorin with the suggestions of various others

Controls:

W,S,A,D Movement
Space Jump
G Teleport
T Turbo
F Fly
E Charge Ki
Mouse1 Primary Attack
Mouse2 Secondary Attack


Swoop:

Swoop starts by tapping Mouse1. Charged Swoops are possible by holding Mouse2 for 1 second and letting go. Charged Swoops give increased damage and speed, but you will be stunned for one second at the end of your attack. After you are swooping, you let go of the button you hit and then hold another, corresponding to what attack you want to do.

Chain Combo:

If you’re swooping at someone and you hit while holding mouse1, you will break into a Chain Combo. Upon hit, the attacker throws a punching assault at the defender. The assault can last for a maximum of three seconds. During the assault, the attack continues to hold mouse1 and is able to hit W,S,A,D, or space for a custom made series of attacks. Keypresses are represented in a bar that shows up, giving you an idea of what keys you’ve hit. There are light and heavy versions of each attack by either tapping or holding the button. The amounts of punches that can be thrown are calculated in blocks. Light punches count for one block, heavy for two. You have a maximum of 3 seconds to place your assault, but the time is cut with each key press. So if you have 3 seconds and you hit a heavy attack, one third of the bar is cut. So this means that you can pull a maximum of three heavy hits, or six light hits, or any variation of that. If the attacker hits the mouse2 button during their combo, the combo ends and after any previous attacks are played out, the attacker would go to grab and throw the defender. The attacker can charge the throw for a minimum of .5 seconds and for a max of whatever time they left themselves in the combo bar. Going over the max will have the defender break free and be open to countering with a knockback or a Chain Combo.

The attacker can cut short the combo by letting go out of mouse1, but the the later mentioned 40 millisecond delay will still ride out for any inputted attacks.

After the combo, the defender will see the keypresses at 50 millisecond intervals. They will see light attacks for 30 and heavy attacks for 40, but they will have to hold the keypresses as the respective hit. If the defender blocks each attack, the attacker is stunned for 100 milliseconds and the defender can either hit mouse1 to Chain Combo or mouse2 to knock them back. This knockback would send them back as far a 1.1 hit would. The stun time would also allow them to get away from the attacker to charge ki or whichever they see fit.

If an attacker successfully land at least 2 light hits and 1 heavy hit and end with a light hit, the defender will be stunned for 100 milliseconds. Attacker can hit mouse1 to execute a grab/finishing move (many ideas for this), or mouse2 to knockback the defender for the length of a 1.1 hit.

Hitting the teleport key while Chain Comboing will end the chain like a throw would. If unblocked, the attacker pops up behind the defender. Hitting Mouse1 would start a chain combo without the possibility of creating a custom string of attacks. This would do more damage than a regular Chain Combo would. Mouse2 would be a 1.1 style melee hit, or a grab move depending on the character. (This could be fooled around with. Freeza’s tail comes to mind here for me. Stuff like that. For characters without things like that, a knockback would be fine.) If the defender hits the teleport key when prompted to, they will teleport once the attacker does and land a teleport’s distance above the attacker. The attacker will be momentarily stunned, looking for the defender.

For Ki costs, there will only be an initiating ki cost for both the player and the defender. All blocks and teleports during the combo will be ‘free’ in terms of ki. If the attacker goes to Chain Combo but doesn’t have enough ki to begin with, they won’t be able to make a combo, and will be stunned after stopping. The defender can then either knock back or Chain Combo. If the defender doesn’t have the ki, they won’t be eligible to block anything. This cost will be around 1.5 times the amount of ki it takes to melee someone now.

If the defender is chain combo’d into a wall, they will receive more damage per punch and the attacker will have 2 blocks added onto his custom combo.

Blocking:

Blocked CC’s will still have the primary punching assault, but no combo will be possible. The attacker will have to teleport away or block himself or get knocked back or Chain Combo’d. If a blocking player doesn’t have the ki enter the Chain Combo, halfway through their guard will break and they will be susceptible to taking more attacks than more. 2 or 4 more blocks of hits will be added. They will still be able to block that first half of attacks, though.

Blocked Knockbacks will send the defender just outside of the non swoop zone, setting themselves up for a swoop back into the action. The attacker in this situation would have the time to either block himself, teleport away, or attack head on.
If the defender is still hit into a wall, they will drop down and take wall hit damage as if they had been normally hit. They will be stunned 100 milliseconds longer than normal because their guard was broken.

Damage:

Chain Combo : 1 per punch, max 10 punches over 3 seconds.
Light CC Hit : 4
Heavy CC Hit : 8
Throw : 5 x seconds charged (including decimals)
Wall Hit : 10
Turbo : +25%
Charged Swoop : +20%
If under 600,000 PL : (Turbo Included and Charged Swoop) -15%
If over 600,000 PL : (Turbo Included and Charged Swoop) +15%
Back Chain Combo : 3 per punch, max 6 punches over 3 seconds
Back Knockback : 25

Head Ons:

Chain Combo + Knockback: Players are knocked away from each other. CC’er takes 10 damage, KB’er takes 5. The KB’er recovers quicker than the CC’er. (Only makes sense, the knockback is going for a strong rush, the Chain Combo is going for a quick punch to start with.)

Knockback + Knockback: Players are knocked away from each other, taking 10 damage a piece.

Chain Combo + Chain Combo: (Dun dun dunnnnn!) *BASSY VOICE* MELEE POWER STRUGGLE….!!!! D: MORTAL KOMBAT!!! *cues that techno-dance theme from the ****ty movie series*

Disclaimer: The base concept of this was shown to me by PCJoe, so he gets the credit. I just kinda.. put values to it and threw in what I thought was strategic.

A regular power struggle bar appears, and two numbers at each side of it are there. The left is your melee level, and the right is your opponent’s (how many of them there may be.) Also, another bar shows up to the right of the screen. This will be referred to here on as the Stamina bar. Each player starts at ML(melee level) one, and each time mouse1 is pressed, the ML will increase by either 1, or 1.6 if you’re transformed. By having turbo, your current value will be multiplied like this:

Normal : 1
Turbo : 1+.4
Transformed : 1+ .6
Charged : 1+.4
Each time you press Mouse1, your stamina bar goes up. Upon reaching full, you can either hit Mouse1 again to try and get an edge by adding 2.5 instead of one, or you can wait to let your stamina die down. By going over your limit, you run the chance of burning out and losing the battle. You will have about 3 seconds after you’d gone over your limit to win the battle, so this will be an all or nothing type of deal. Winning the struggle by going over your limit will leave you stunned for 200 milliseconds.

Stamina will start at 50% and go down at 75% of the speed of a generic beam jump.

Adding to your ML with turbo on will cost you more stamina wise per keypress than without, as will charging your swoop. You will have the advantage of reaching higher ML’s faster, but you also run the chance of burning out quicker.

It will cost you the same amount of ki to break into a CC to start a powerstruggle. Ki will then slowly go down on its own. Each time you hit turbo, a small amount of ki will be taken away, so it’s not wise to switch on and off with turbo. You will also burn ki faster with turbo on.

Hitting Move back (S) will lower your ML by 3, but give you a third of your ki in return so you can continue the struggle. If you reach 0, in ki or in ML, you lose the struggle. Your stamina is not decreased if you lower your ML.

If a player gets ahead of another by 5, they will win the struggle. If a player A is ahead by 4.9 or less, then player B will start to receive damage at 3 for every 2 seconds and the struggle will move physically in favor of the winning player. Wall damage adds 2 damage per every 2 seconds.. In this case, Player A will receive damage 1 for every 2 seconds. If the melee levels are within 1.5, each player will take 1 for every 2 seconds.

A player can opt out of the struggle by pressing the block key, only if they are within 1.5 ML of the other player. This would end up with the blocking player swooping backward after taking a hard hit. The attacker would automatically swoop after the player in a chain combo, where they could set up a custom series of attacks. The blocker would then be able to attempt to block the onslaught and counter. There is the disadvantage of taking damage in blocking out of a struggle, but you can still gain the upper hand later on. This was set up this way to frown upon backing away from a struggle unless you want to keep the losses at a minimum.

Winning a struggle allows you to land a heavy hit and break into a chain combo that the loser cannot block, this includes all but teleports. Blockers can still teleport away from a combo if the attacker tries to teleport behind them.


*cues bassy voice* FATALITY. D:


Multiple fighting situations:

If an attacker is Chain Combo’ing, they can be knocked away from the defender if a third person does so, but cannot be CC’d. In struggles, players can add themselves in, but must work as a team to keep the ML going up, but keeping the stamina down. For each added player to a side, they will be giving 30% more stamina to work with. Each player is able to add to the ML, but overdoing it will have them lose and both will be knocked away by the single player. There is no option to go over the limit if there is more than one person on a side of the struggle. Think of when Ginyu was struggling with Krillin and Gohan and he found an opening and was able to knock them both back. The players on the same team will get in the way of each other if they go over the stamina limit. If the team wins the struggle, the sole player will receive knockback + (6 * amount of players.)


Miscellaneous Thoughts:

I, Halorin, always thought it would be cool to add character specific things in melee to give them all a reason to be played. For example, say if during a melee struggle, Krillin or Piccolo hit mouse2 and they split formed at the cost of ki, but their ML went up 2 at a time at the cost 1.5 of the normal stamina cost. That would be pretty cool, huh? Or if Freeza’s back grab was the volleyball teleport thing he did. Of course it would have to be scripted and automatically done more or less, but maybe the player could aim it out into the open for a maximum of 3 hits. That would be pretty slick, if you asked me. I don’t know. Stuff like that couldn’t hurt later on, I’d say.
 
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welcome back :]

barvo.. your idea pretty much suits me, i dont know about others but i love you concept.
 

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as I've rad this before, I love this idea, nothing wrong IMO. Even though I don't know what to expect in 1.2, I'm just all over this idea ^^
 
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i like the combo system and the button configuration suits my style of play.

great ideas :)
 
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........ how exactly can 2 people knock back?

Best idea. Ever. (out of the melee suggestions)

EDIT: Maybe more health for ESF characters? One battle seems to drain 100 hp.
 
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Hwoarang said:
i like the combo system and the button configuration suits my style of play.

great ideas :)

i dont think the button positions would remain static for those of us that play the right way. DOOM style ^_^
 
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How can two people knock back? I just figured they'd both be well, knocked away from each other. Perhaps they'd move back the distance of a normal knock back so they'd move at half each, but be outside of the non swoop zone so they could get right back into fighting.

Hope that helps.
 
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In many animes including DBZ there are scenes where two characters are going at each ohter at high speeds and head on and when they go past each other its gets really dramatic and quiet and we find out that one of them suffered some massive damage that the viewer couldn't see when they passed. This happened with Vegeta and Trunks in the Super Android 13 movie when they fight the androids. I have absolutely no Idea how to program this into ESF, but it is just an idea :rolleyes:
 
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Well, I don't know if I put this in there or not, but I believe in the powerstruggle thing the loser would take whatever the melee level was times some sort of modifiier, like 1.5 or 2, maybe. So if the fight goes up to like, 20, some huge damage could be done. I think it'd probably be best to have a ML limit, like at 25 they just break away from each other and take some amount of damage. I wouldn't want to be stuck in that for too long.
 
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Were the ESF team attempting to make their melee system unnecessarily complicated and Virtua-Fighter level difficult to master this idea would communicate much more effectively to me, but fortunately or unfortunately ESF is aiming more along the lines of Soul Calibur right now. They and I want the game to be simple enough for anyone to get into but take some time to master, and with just enough variation to keep things from becomming too predictable for either party in 1 on 1 melee.

I think it's nice, but I just don't think it's for ESF. Maybe if they wanted to add a third, more complicated melee system down the line, it would be something to consider. As it is, new players would be overwhelmed with options before melee was even initiated (mouse 1 or mouse 2? Do I need to swoop faster but risk missing if my charge comes up short and get stunned? Should I do a combo or just throw somebody?), and what if they make a mistake? What if I make a mistake and hit mouse2 instead of mouse1? I end up stunned because my player hopped forward an inch after I tapped the wrong button.

Until we have a fan base that rivals CS I don't think we can afford to completely overwhelm newcomers with options. A simple but effective system is just more practical for the time being. I like the ideas, but not yet. Give it a couple of betas.
 
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i don;t think we really won't be able to decide what we like till they actually take the ideas on paper and apply them to the game, eventually releasing them to the public for massive wave of criticism.

the team creates we contemplate, its a 2-way system.
 
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All this will.. well it will create a whole new game, a much better game than 1.1
 
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yeah i think if esf was only melee and had no beams what so ever and was on abit smaller scale it would be a perfect idea

but the way esf is and the size of everything it would be too hard use a melee system like that well in such an open place


seems like the idea would fit far better in like a hl2 matrix mod or something along the lines of that



anyway i think that if it were put into esf the multi fighting would need to be improved alot to make it just more accessable to people cause i think its a known fact laying the smackdown on 20 people at once is way cooler than just beating on 2 or 3
 
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errr... isnt that the 1.2 melee or what????? if it is U COPYER!!!!!!! LOLLOLOLOL!!!!! anyway i think its kinda same that the 1.2 meleee
 
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People Always Complaining about a system they never used ~ My opinion is : there are some things , sounding very weird to me and some things , really great ... but imagine that whole thing and playing it is a huge difference , we will see how it will be ~
 
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Pain said:
i dont think the button positions would remain static for those of us that play the right way. DOOM style ^_^
Right on Pain! Arrow Keys Till Death!! (Of course I have five mouse buttons, so I kind of don't need more than the arrow keys, but regardless, Doom style rules!)

As far as the melee concept, I haven't really read it in depth yet cause I'm in work, so I don't know how much it differs from the draft Halorin showed me during his "extended involuntary vacation."

At any rate, it may seem good on paper but as I perused this thread, I noticed (and correct me if I'm wrong) that no one considered much of the implications of implementing this complex system. While it does seem cool, it might be a little extraneous in points, is all I worry about.

Personally I would prefer to combine all three melee styles and take the strongest points of each. But unfortunately, two are in existence at the moment. We'll have to see how 1.2 does before we can even think about redoing the melee system.

Although I DID like the attempts at preserving the speed of ESF. A prime concern of mine with 1.2 is people finding the melee charge so unbearable that they set the cvar massively high and then just tap diagonal up and right 20,000 times as fast as humanly possible. While I imagine it would be easy to block or counter, it would suck if people exploited the 1.2 system that way, because then the fights would not only be a little less interactive (which is cool with me, mind you) but they would be completely boring, on top of it.

I also have to say that to a degree I agree with Sonic. It's pretty deep, and for it's depth, it IS rtelatively intuitive (at least the prior draft I read), but it's really sort of...well...catering to the most hardcore players and leaving average schmucks in the dust.

The result, then, of course, will be the entire ESF fanbase except for the dozen or so elites to use whatever portion of Hal's melee that is the easiest, making the whole effort of implementing this complex system null and void.

Not to mention...can Half-Life handle that amount of calculations per player?
 
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onobi said:
errr... isnt that the 1.2 melee or what????? if it is U COPYER!!!!!!! LOLLOLOLOL!!!!! anyway i think its kinda same that the 1.2 meleee
Shut your pie, this guy MADE the 1.2 melee what it is. So I guess they are the copyers in a way!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
 
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Ummm. The 1.2 melee system was designed long before these ideas were put forward.... besides that, post something constructive, or don't post....it's a simple rule, it's in the AUP, and I'm sure Halorin wants his thread to remain open.
 

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