Combat Stances

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There is also defensive like Buu that takes reduced damage, Cell and Piccolo who get reduced KI damage and so on.

In the end we can fine tune each character even if they are in the same arctype.

And since the base is different, that means even if we apply the same overall stance benefits to them, they will all still be different.
 
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cool, I like that idea a lot. basic strengths for each character and then the arch based stance benefits.

Just one thing. I don't see how having a stance should have to drain extra KI. I think having negative affects associated with each stance is more than enough of a balance effect, IE give more damage but take more damage kind of things.

Let's get some arc types named and down



All-rounder
Brawler
Melee
Ki users
Ki resistant
All around resistant
(i still think it would be cool to have Androids on a separate category)

And each character's transformation can be a different arch type as well; Like Trunks is definitely more of a Melee user when he's ssj and normal, but when he is USSJ he is definitely more of a brawler type.

Like Fat Buu is definitely a defensive ... but his transformations are complete different. Kid Buu in the end is a very good Ki Specialist
 
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Just one thing. I don't see how having a stance should have to drain extra KI. I think having negative affects associated with each stance is more than enough of a balance effect, IE give more damage but take more damage kind of things.
I believe they see it as some sort of power-ups rather than stances. It makes sense when you think of what each one is. Aggressive stance is similar to when a character in the show gives into pure blind rage, temporarily becoming more powerful, but simultaneously becoming very reckless, thus less focused, thus more use of ki.

Personally when it comes to aggresive I still think it should drain ki while your in it, but it should also allow you to fly faster, besides doing more raw damage, if just to allow players to feel like Vegeta when he found out the dragonball was gone.

[video=youtube;QX0bwFN-K9w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX0bwFN-K9w[/video]

In defensive stance stance I still think it should increase both the ki and the defences allowing you to use more beams in this stance and defend yourself against attackers coming for you head on, but at the same time render yourself vulnerable by having your speed decrease quite dramatically.

Dunno how each of these would fit archetypes though...
 
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Yep Offensive state is more like an "enraged" mode and there it does make sense to increase ki consumption. Because when you go offensive you don't care about using to much of your resources.
Remeber almost every DBZ char wich went enraged or fully offensive/aggressive where completly exhausted afterwards and they most of the time couldn't keep that state very long, they went enrage did all they could using everything they had and then pew..i'll just fall over
 
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I see where you guys are getting at, but Stances shouldn't be a power up, they are just stances; with transformations and turbo i feel like we have enough power ups in the game. for SOME characters it makes sens to make their offensive stance drain more ki and act like an enrager (like Vegeta) but it shouldn't be like that for everyone.

Like when u do martial arts in real life, there are stances/styles to fighting; offensive doesn't necessarily mean you are enraged. Most offensive stances just leave u more vulnerable to attacks which goes along with the whole taking more damage but being able to give out more damage.

If you wanted to make a really solid and dynamic system, we could have turbo act as an enrager ... like meaning, when ur in an offensive state and you use turbo, you go into an enrage mode. If you are in a defensive mode and use turbo, you go into a increased aura mode (kinda how the Z fighters use their KI energy to push ppl away, by just powering up or exerting their aura) which reduced damage. But i feel like that would really make things very complex to balance and work out.


I don't think stances should be seen as a power up, they are just stances and just invoke a different fighting style. We could make it so that when you are in offensive stance, you can't block ki attacks anymore and block certain kinds of attacks or make blocking something that can't stop all attacks. Then we could make defensive stance not be able to do some ki attacks, so on and so furth.

I already see a lot of KI draining features in the game from what has been discussed; id like stances to stay away from that mechanic (maybe instead we could have it deal with stamina? i still don't know much about the stamina feature in the game to say anything)
 
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Actually my entire reason for KI drain on offensive is this. Putting extra energy behind each punch. Basically each attack you do or use does more damage, but it also burns more KI and stamina and in this stance not having your guard up causes you to take more damage, as opposed to defensive where the damage you are dealt to gets partialy absorbed by the KI and stamina, instead of the health bar, as well as being "on guard" and doing less damage.
 
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Actually my entire reason for KI drain on offensive is this. Putting extra energy behind each punch. Basically each attack you do or use does more damage, but it also burns more KI and stamina and in this stance not having your guard up causes you to take more damage, as opposed to defensive where the damage you are dealt to gets partialy absorbed by the KI and stamina, instead of the health bar, as well as being "on guard" and doing less damage.


Yeah, i understand that logic. but stances are stances because they are designed to be efficient for their objective. Having other negative effects like increased damage taken or not being able to make some defensive moves make up for it. Kinda like when Goku surpresses his Ki until the exact moment of attacking. He is causing lots of damage yet keeping his ki use efficient. I get u want there to be more KI used just because its more damage ... but u have to understand, if ur taking more damage at the same time as well it is already self balanced; adding more ki used is just a double whammy ... i don't think id ever want to use offensive stance if it had so much negative effect.
 
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Actually my entire reason for KI drain on offensive is this. Putting extra energy behind each punch. Basically each attack you do or use does more damage, but it also burns more KI and stamina and in this stance not having your guard up causes you to take more damage, as opposed to defensive where the damage you are dealt to gets partialy absorbed by the KI and stamina, instead of the health bar, as well as being "on guard" and doing less damage.
Pretty much the idea I have for the stance, too - except for the stamina part, I didn't know about that until a few days ago. Just reading some of the replies sparked a thought inside my dull, and pointless little brain of mine. Obviously this sort of goes against everything that the stance are in their current conception, but what if for arguments sake we made them all passives. EDIT: These ideas are separate to stances. They are Modes that automatically trigger.

Aggression: A stance/ mode that activates once you drop to your last few threads of health. Upon reaching 25 health your willingness to survive above all else consumes every fiber of your being. On top of the standard Turbo aura that exists whenever you swoop ect, a few faint red flames/ sparks circle random bits of your body. This is akin to SS2's lightning visual, and if you were in the SS2 then the lightning that already exists could be converted to red. Anyway, back on point; Aggression does all the things that we discussed early, we could perhaps double it's strengths though - double the numbers with the trade off that it only last for like, 10 seconds or something, or maybe it could last for a certain amount of hits. If Aggression was like this, then (if you wanted to) you could justify giving the stance a fair amount of life steal during this 10 seconds, maybe like 50% or something outrageous like that. However, such a powerful form needs something to keep it balanced - so, if you are hit within this form then you either die straight away, or you lose the stance, and are unable to use it again until the next time you respawn. If you are not hit then the stance has a 2 minute cooldown or something - perhaps activating this stance also refunds an inkling of stamina, too.

Defensive: It automatically activates after you receive too many hits in a row within a certain time frame. Once it activates, you gain like 10 stamina (just a lil' sumsing, sumsing), and you also gain all the other % buffs to defensive stats. When it activates all enemies within 10 yards are sent tumbling away by the explosion of forth you had sent out (would require unique animation). Maybe you get a temporary health boost, as well? Defensive only comes about when you are getting so utterly annihilated (I'm talking like 15+ consecutive hits) - and it only activates because you (your character) becomes so frustrated with how badly they are losing that it pushes them over the edge for a brief moment <-- you see things like this happening all throughout the show; even if they only get a few hits in, and the hits don't actually have any effect - the point is that this alone justifies having a mechanic like this within the game.

Movement: I'm trying to keep with my passive theme I've got going here, but I can't seem to find anywhere for Movement to go. My idea for it is that once it activates then all of your movements cost a lot less Ki to use (swooping, and teleporting in particular). Stamina could, once again, be refunded as well. The amount of Ki or Stamina that you receive once this activates be a very large amount, and it also increases your flight speed dramatically, and also how far your teleport takes you. The trade of being a debt, and I can see it working similar to the real life occurrence of an oxygen debt. The amount you received could either drain over time, and very rapidly - or it could persist for a time, and then suddenly fall off. You could even create idles for the characters that showed them slouched over, and breathing very heavily for about 5 seconds. The problem is that I see no situation that could incur this particular stance's activation nor do I think this idea is all that great, but I wanted to make it similar to the other two.

You could just remove movement all together, and just go with the other two - perhaps going as far as to keep the three original stance ideas as well as this new one. The Modes I just described don't have to be all that passive either. Once your health is low enough a little symbol on your screen could flash, telling you to hit "O" to activate Aggression mode ~ and the same can be said the Defensive mode.

In regards to the amount of buttons required to activate each individual stance surpassing how many the team would be willing to advocate; you could just make them modifiers. To justify this a bit more, anyone that's versed me in 1.2.3 will know about my play style. It's a play style revolving entirely around teleporting. As a side, all of my keys are the defaults. In order to achieve this style of play, I press 5 buttons in this order: E>T>G>Direction input. Depending on where I want to teleport, I'll either hit space for up, control (or shift, can't remember) for down, up for forward, left for left, and so on. As soon as I've reappeared I will do this sequence again, and again, and again, and on, and on until I can find an opening to attack. I'll teleport down, then forward, then back, then left; and the second my opponent stops to charge his Ki, or he stops because he can't find me then I will swoop in to strike. Every time I come out of teleport my Turbo is already up, and all I have to do is swoop at them. Having read all of this, you can imagine how fast I'm moving my fingers in order to preform all of this - and believe me, you HAVE to move them fast. If you're too slow in preforming this, or if you stumble with the keys for a second then you're opponent (assuming they're skilled) will catch you. So, putting a shift-O modifier for Aggression, and a control-O modifier for Movement (for example) is not going to be an issue for me. And once other people practice preforming these movements then they won't have an issue with preforming it either. And if some people don't want to bother with all learning those modifiers then... who cares? You cannot create a game with the sole purpose of making every single aspect of the gameplay applicable to the casual audience. More to the point; the whole idea behind stances was that they were optional, you don't HAVE to switch to Defensive if you're being hit ect, ect, and so on.
 
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Pretty much the idea I have for the stance, too - except for the stamina part, I didn't know about that until a few days ago. Just reading some of the replies sparked a thought inside my dull, and pointless little brain of mine. Obviously this sort of goes against everything that the stance are in their current conception, but what if for arguments sake we made them all passives.

Aggression: A stance that activates once you drop to your last few threads of health. Upon reaching 25 health your willingness to survive above all else consumes every fiber of your being. On top of the standard Turbo aura that exists whenever you swoop ect, a few faint red flames/ sparks circle random bits of your body. This is akin to SS2's lightning visual, and if you were in the SS2 then the lightning that already exists could be converted to red. Anyway, back on point; Aggression does all the things that we discussed early, we could perhaps double it's strengths though - double the numbers with the trade off that it only last for like, 10 seconds or something, or maybe it could last for a certain amount of hits. If Aggression was like this, then (if you wanted to) you could justify giving the stance a fair amount of life steal during this 10 seconds, maybe like 50% or something outrageous like that. However, such a powerful form needs something to keep it balanced - so, if you are hit within this form then you either die straight away, or you lose the stance, and are unable to use it again until the next time you respawn. If you are not hit then the stance has a 2 minute cooldown or something - perhaps activating this stance also refunds an inkling of stamina, too.

Defensive: It automatically activates after you receive too many hits in a row within a certain time frame. Once it activates, you gain like 10 stamina (just a lil' sumsing, sumsing), and you also gain all the other % buffs to defensive stats. When it activates all enemies within 10 yards are sent tumbling away by the explosion of forth you had sent out (would require unique animation). Maybe you get a temporary health boost, as well? Defensive only comes about when you are getting so utterly annihilated (I'm talking like 15+ consecutive hits) - and it only activates because you (your character) becomes so frustrated with how badly they are losing that it pushes them over the edge for a brief moment <-- you see things like this happening all throughout the show; even if they only get a few hits in, and the hits don't actually have any effect - the point is that this alone justifies having a mechanic like this within the game.

Movement: I'm trying to keep with my passive theme I've got going here, but I can't seem to find anywhere for Movement to go. My idea for it is that once it activates then all of your movements cost a lot less Ki to use (swooping, and teleporting in particular). Stamina could, once again, be refunded as well. The amount of Ki or Stamina that you receive once this activates be a very large amount, and it also increases your flight speed dramatically, and also how far your teleport takes you. The trade of being a debt, and I can see it working similar to the real life occurrence of an oxygen debt. The amount you received could either drain over time, and very rapidly - or it could persist for a time, and then suddenly fall off. You could even create idles for the characters that showed them slouched over, and breathing very heavily for about 5 seconds. The problem is that I see no situation that could incur this particular stance's activation nor do I think this idea is all that great, but I wanted to make it similar to the other two.

You could just remove movement all together, and just go with the other two - perhaps going as far as to keep the three original stance ideas as well as this new one. The passive stances I just described don't have to be all that passive either. Once your health is low enough a little symbol on your screen could flash, telling you to hit "O" to activate Aggression mode ~ and the same can be said the Defensive mode.

In regards to the amount of buttons required to activate each individual stance surpassing how many the team would be willing to advocate; you could just make them modifiers. To justify this a bit more, anyone that's versed me in 1.2.3 will know about my play style. It's a play style revolving entirely around teleporting. As a side, all of my keys are the defaults. In order to achieve this style of play, I press 5 buttons in this order: E>T>G>Direction input. Depending on where I want to teleport, I'll either hit space for up, control (or shift, can't remember) for down, up for forward, left for left, and so on. As soon as I've reappeared I will do this sequence again, and again, and again, and on, and on until I can find an opening to attack. I'll teleport down, then forward, then back, then left; and the second my opponent stops to charge his Ki, or he stops because he can't find me then I will swoop in to strike. Every time I come out of teleport my Turbo is already up, and all I have to do is swoop at them. Having read all of this, you can imagine how fast I'm moving my fingers in order to preform all of this - and believe me, you HAVE to move them fast. If you're too slow in preforming this, or if you stumble with the keys for a second then you're opponent (assuming they're skilled) will catch you. So, putting a shift-O modifier for Aggression, and a control-O modifier for Movement (for example) is not going to be an issue for me. And once other people practice preforming these movements then they won't have an issue with preforming it either. And if some people don't want to bother with all learning those modifiers then... who cares? You cannot create a game with the sole purpose of making every single aspect of the gameplay applicable to the casual audience. More to the point; the whole idea behind stances was that they were optional, you don't HAVE to switch to Defensive if you're being hit ect, ect, and so on.
I don't know if aggressive should activate only once you drop below a certain amount of hp. I mean I don't know about other people, but in my case system like, do more damage once you take some damage never really agreed with me, because every time I'd get low enough to really do some serious damage, I'd also get low enough to get owned in one hit. And more times I get owned in one hit, before I even get the chance to unload all of the rage I can.

Personally I think they should be activatable every time someone believes they are needed. This way people will have to blame themselves if they get owned when activating the wrong stance, rather than get owned because a stance they didn't want to activate activated.
 
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Personally I think they should be activatable every time someone believes they are needed. This way people will have to blame themselves if they get owned when activating the wrong stance, rather than get owned because a stance they didn't want to activate activated.
It's my firm belief that these two ideas could coexist ~ In an ideal world you could still activate the stance of your choice, but what I just discussed would still automatically happen, too. Also for future reference the passive effects will now be referred to as, Modes (Aggressive Mode ect) Also, Aggressive Mode, and Defence Mode activating at the same time would not be a bad thing at all ~ but if it was then you can easily just give one Mode priority over another depending on the situation. By that I mean; Defence activates above all else since it only comes about in extreme situations when a player would need it the most.
 
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It's my firm belief that these two ideas could coexist ~ In an ideal world you could still activate the stance of your choice, but what I just discussed would still automatically happen, too. Also for future reference the passive effects will now be referred to as, Modes (Aggressive Mode ect) Also, Aggressive Mode, and Defence Mode activating at the same time would not be a bad thing at all ~ but if it was then you can easily just give one Mode priority over another depending on the situation. By that I mean; Defence activates above all else since it only comes about in extreme situations when a player would need it the most.
Yeah but here's the thing. There is an innate problem with them activating automatically. And here it is.

You're flying around minding your business, but all of a sudden you get into a fight. Things happen and you get hurt a lot. Now what is the general responses some players would want to do in certain situations.
I'm really hurt. Time to whip out some powerful beams and blast these fools into oblivion. If I go down, might as well go down blasting. Ooops can't do that aggressive mode just activated so now your ki drains like alcohol in a club on a Friday night. You were supposed to charge and go all out with the punches.

Or

I'm getting attacked a lot. Now might be the time for a bit of tactical withdrawal and make a plan for some attacks. Why am I flying so slow now? Ooops defensive mode activated. Now you're supposed to start guarding and blasting.

See when things happen automatically because of certain reasons it often creates a conflict of interest between what a player wants to do in certain situations, and what a system dictates the player should do. It can result in some very unfair deaths.
 
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Yeah but here's the thing. There is an innate problem with them activating automatically. And here it is.

You're flying around minding your business, but all of a sudden you get into a fight. Things happen and you get hurt a lot. Now what is the general responses some players would want to do in certain situations.
I'm really hurt. Time to whip out some powerful beams and blast these fools into oblivion. If I go down, might as well go down blasting. Ooops can't do that aggressive mode just activated so now your ki drains like alcohol in a club on a Friday night. You were supposed to charge and go all out with the punches.

Or

I'm getting attacked a lot. Now might be the time for a bit of tactical withdrawal and make a plan for some attacks. Why am I flying so slow now? Ooops defensive mode activated. Now you're supposed to start guarding and blasting.

See when things happen automatically because of certain reasons it often creates a conflict of interest between what a player wants to do in certain situations, and what a system dictates the player should do. It can result in some very unfair deaths.
Nah, I agree. That's why these are separate from stances, they are modes. Aggression Mode shouldn't drain you Ki; the only difference you'll notice is that you're taking a lot more damage, dealing more as well, and you're also sparkling red or something. Same goes for Defence Mode, it shouldn't slow your movement speed. The modes not only serve as a backup option to replace stances if they were not implemented, but also to pile other passive percentages into (since my idea for stances had a lot of passive effects as well)
 
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Nah, I agree. That's why these are separate from stances, they are modes. Aggression Mode shouldn't drain you Ki; the only difference you'll notice is that you're taking a lot more damage, dealing more as well, and you're also sparkling red or something. Same goes for Defence Mode, it shouldn't slow your movement speed. The modes not only serve as a backup option to replace stances if they were not implemented, but also to pile other passive percentages into (since my idea for stances had a lot of passive effects as well)
Yeah but then you would take away some of the risk rewards that come with it.

I dunno. Personally I like freedom with consequences in games. I like to get enraged when I want to get enraged. I don't want the game dictating when I should do what in what situation. If I want to bet on aggression when my hp is low, but then get owned because of it, as I didn't account for my current ki, it should be my fault, my bad decision I wanted to make that bet and then lost.

This way with automatic activation it would mean the game helps you. Again something I'm not really a fan of. I don't need your help game. I can help myself. *Gets killed by a swoop* Shut up game.
 
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Yeah but then you would take away some of the risk rewards that come with it.

I dunno. Personally I like freedom with consequences in games. I like to get enraged when I want to get enraged. I don't want the game dictating when I should do what in what situation. If I want to bet on aggression when my hp is low, but then get owned because of it, as I didn't account for my current ki, it should be my fault, my bad decision I wanted to make that bet and then lost.
Solid points. I also had the idea that Aggresion Mode could activate when you hit 1 health, and lets you live for 5-10 seconds longer. During this time you have no restriction to Ki, and Stamina ~ That might be a bit drastic.
 
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Solid points. I also had the idea that Aggresion Mode could activate when you hit 1 health, and lets you live for 5-10 seconds longer. During this time you have no restriction to Ki, and Stamina ~ That might be a bit drastic.
That would be what makes Tryndamere in LoL the most annoying thing to deal with ever. I wouldn't give that power to players ever. If you go down, you go down.

Also it would remind of last stand in CoD. And boy that system is beyond stupid to deal with and cheap.

I would do something like this on a computer controlled mob (if ESF;F would ever have silly game modes modded in) but not for players.
 
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That would be what makes Tryndamere in LoL the most annoying thing to deal with ever. I wouldn't give that power to players ever. If you go down, you go down.

Also it would remind of last stand in CoD. And boy that system is beyond stupid to deal with and cheap.

I would do something like this on a computer controlled mob (if ESF;F would ever have silly game modes modded in) but not for players.

Yea, pretty much. It's why I didn't included it. I mention that the Mode could also be optional, like; a symbol flashes on your screen telling you that you can use it IF you want. Idno, you could cap out how many times you can use it (regardless of new lives) per game.
 
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Yea, pretty much. It's why I didn't included it. I mention that the Mode could also be optional, like; a symbol flashes on your screen telling you that you can use it IF you want. Idno, you could cap out how many times you can use it (regardless of new lives) per game.
Wouldn't give the players the choice either, because you know them players. They bad.

I would totally do this if someone would make a mode called beat up Broly. Whether it's one person controlling Broly who is way more powerful than everyone else against up to 4 players or whether it's a COMP controlled Broly vs 4 players I would totally include a system like that for Broly. That guy is a maniac so it would work perfectly for him.
 
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Yeah .... I dojt think anything should activate automatically. Control is all about dbz. Dont need double stance/mode bonuses. Stances I feel are way better. Lets focus on making some cool stsnce concepts
 
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There isn't much left to discuss, Vector. Everything that needs to be said on the matter has been said, and now it's up to the developers to decide whether or not they wish to incorporate it into the final product.
 

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