Combat Stances

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So this idea of different combat stances in another thread and I thought i'd make a new thread about it. Here is what I suggested about the idea.

I will also post what other people posted on it.



Also, i think the idea of only having 2 stances is a bit basic. as it was suggested earlier, someone was mentioning different states, aggressive (speed), aggressive (strength). then there could be defensive (reduced damage), or defensive (evasion, harder to hit/hitbox).

honestly, so far the combat seems very bland. playing 1.2.3 ... melee is pretty much the same for every character... the biggest differences in characters is a few select abilities. I feel like this stance idea can b broadened by having each character's having their OWN unique stances to go along with these basic ones. let me give some examples


So, for piccolo ... he is a Namekian. Namekians are one of the races in DBZ that can heal and regenerate. What if they had stances which helped them with this.
Defensive stance would be: increased healing regen while suffering speed.
Offensive stance would be: increased damage/speed with reduced healing aspect.

Gohan: Gohan has a unique trait to him, when he gets pushed to a limit he can enrage
Defensive state: slight increase in defense, the more damage he takes, it builds up his "potential" bar.
Offensive state: his skills dramatically increase strength/speed dependent on his "potential" bar which gets drained over time.

Goku has his near death thing ... when he's nearly getting his ass kicked he has a bigger boost.

Offensive: when in this stance, depending on his current health his speed/strength increases. the lesser hp he has, the more his boost
Defensive: lets face it guys ... Goku can take an ass beating when he wants to. depending on his HP, he has more defense and also, when he is charging any KI moves he gets an extra defensive boost (he can take quite a punch when doing ki attacks).

I honestly don't expect these specific stances to be used, probably creates quite a lot of work. but these named above could b used on multiple ppl. Piccolo's stance could b used for other healers like Buu. Gohan's stance above could b used for Vegeta, instead his potential bar would b changed to "pride" bar, his pride gets hurt when he gets hit so that increases his enrage/pride bar. Goku's could b used for a lot of the Z fighters. The androids would have their own type, and other characters can use the really basic ones mentioned before.


I mean ... just imagine this. Seeing Trunks as an USSJ all big n bulky with lightning going around ... and all the sudden he decides to change his stance, his muscles actually get bigger (since u can control how much strength u build up in USSJ, he controlled it against cell) and he gets stronger but slower at the same time, gaining defense but still just becoming much slower.

Let me know what u guys think on this.




ORIGINAL POST

Can we just mute this Vector guy for a week or something? I mean... really.

To stimulate the conversation some more, take another one of my half baked ideas! What if we had attack stances? (this is really just building on my original half baked idea). So,you have three stances. The first stance is: Aggression. Aggression increases your damage output by 20%, increases how far an enemy is knocked back, and it also increases the amount of damage an enemy takes when/ if they are knocked against the environment - however, the down fall is that while you are in this stance you are less concerned with your own well being. What does this mean? Well, it means you don't defend yourself as much as you should do; and as such you will take 20% more damage. Fear not - the pure blood lust, and hatred that has been swelling up inside of you is pumping you full of adrenalin - making you that much harder to keep down. Your attacks heal you for .5%, and they also have a 5% to heal you for an additional 5% of your maximum health.

The second stance is: Defensive. Defensive does pretty much what the name suggests. You no longer desire to be the one who attacks first; you await for your enemy to strike, and counter attack them. In this stance you move 15% slower, you take 25% less damage, and any attack you block increases your defense by .5% stacking up to a maximum of 5 times. Also: Any attack that you successfully block has a 5% chance to be redirected back at the enemy, causing them the same damage they would have normally inflicted on you only now it's been increased by 100%.

The third stance is: Movement. Much like the other two, it does what the name suggests. Arguably the most ballsy stance you could fight with. Defensive, raw attacking power; you've sacrificed it all to be able to move fast. 30% decrease to defensive stats, and attacking stats. All of your body's movements have had their speed increased by 30%. You now attack the enemy so fast, and with such unrelenting vigor that you have a 20% to cause them, Stagger. Stagger is a debuff, a mini stun of sorts. It stacks, of course, and upon reaching 10 stacks the enemy will be Staggered; stunning them for 2 seconds. If you were to attack them during this time; the damage, and the knock back are greatly increase.

These stances could switched between on the fly; think of them like saber stances from the Jedi Knight series. Keep in mind that all these percentages have only be inserted to help people get a better understanding of the things I discussed - they don't have to be these exact numbers, and some of them are probably too big, and would be considered over powered. Nor are these stances too complex for a game like ESF; if ideas similar to this were to be implemented it would add a lot more complexity, and depth.

Discuss.

Now regarding the stances. I kinda like the idea. thats why i was arguing for teh adition of character orientations.

Example:

Trunks: Orientation melee (deal mode melee damage, drain less KI on swoop, drain more KI on KI attacks)
Vegeta: Orientation KI attacks (less KI used for KI attacks, deal more damage with KI attacks, do less damage with melee)
Buu: Orientation Defense (Take less damage from KI attacks and melee, more KI used in KI attacks)
Goku: All rounder (No bonuses, but no penalties either)


And so on. Though i could see it also working as a stance system for the chars. The issue comes because you are the only one who knows what stance you have, because the models are to small and to fast to see differences in animations.

As such id say the 3 stance idea is great, but id make it simpler.

Attacker: +40% damage (dealt and taken), +20% KI drain, +20% stamina drain
Balanced: No bonus, no penalty
defender: -40% damage (dealt and taken), damage taken rerouted 20% KI, 20% stamina (thats the 40 %)

There was also talks of how it is shown what stance teh player is in (one person suggested aura sizes) and also implementing a Internal Cool Down in switching stances.
 
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Well we are strictly against cool downs, as it goes against the free flowing nature of the game.

Also playing with the speed is a bit of a risk factor, since speeds already reach the collision detection limits, meaning you could get issues with collision detection in some cases. Ofcourse we could easily up the refresh rate on the detection, but that also means more resources spent by the physics engine and an increased amount of FPS drop possibility.

Besides if we overcomplicate things it could get confusing, thats why i suggested a simple offensive/defensive design. Though i guess class specific additions are possible, but its tough to do a balanced system especially if we end up throwing the characters in to classes.
 
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Well i would say here a cooldown might be a good thing..not a long one just maybe 2-3 secs so you don't switch all the time. I think that forces players more to think about what stance they want to use. And yeah i still think we should lower the movement speed a bit. Get's rly hard to track ppl when you missed them by 2m (can just hear dalte screaming "NOOOOO they need to be supa faast and shiny")

And yep 3 stances, offensive, balanced(current one) and defensive would be enought. Just the activation thing might be a bit of a problem (key wise). That's why i suggested that you can only change them when not swooping with a key combo.
Think of it, changing your fighting style like buffing up takes you some time and no character did it during flight
 
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A better idea. To prevent quick changes between stances, the player is forced in to a short animation. During that animation he cant move or recharge his KI. Meaning for 2 seconds while the stance change animation plays, he becomes a sitting duck. That would prevent people from changing them mid combat unless its REALLY dicy and they absolutley need to do it.

That also means we can bind them to the old ascend and descend keys Y and X, since we now use G and H for transformations. Its close enough to be rechanbe from the movement keys, and since you get stuck in position uppon pressing the button it doesnt matter than you cant reach the movement keys while changing stances.

There would also be no need for a cool down time, because the animation itself is the penalty. So if you continue to change the stances the animation keeps resetting and you are stuck there even longer.
 
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Yep well cool down time = animation time, sounds fair. And i would go for pressing X+A/W/D for offensive/balanced/defensive so you can get better from offensive to defences without going to blanced first.
 
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You dont need to go though balanced. Think of it as an edited XOR switch between Offensive and Deffensive (O and D) with 0 being balanced.

You can switch one on or off, or switch to the other, but you cant activate both at the same time. Pressing the button once gives it a value of 1 and pressing it again gives it a 0, pressing the other button would give the active one a 0 and the other a 1

O D
0 0 - balanced (press D)
0 1 - defensive (press O)
1 0 - offensive (press O)
0 0 - balanced
1 1 - not possible (reverts to balanced)

That should work nicely enough ;)
 
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I think transformations add enough dynamics to the game already that the stance system is not really needed. May not be the same thing, but from what I heard transforming will have pros and cons, which is what stances do, so perhaps let's no make the game too complex.
 
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i like the animation idea. if the problem with speed is the game already being too fasted; i don't think it would be too difficult to adjust the overall speed of the game to keep from these collision problems.

I agree with the balancing issue, i feel like that would be the most difficult aspect of the stances, not having too many variations would help in that and also to have the stances give MINOR boosts. Minor boosts in those stances would make it a lot easier to balance. I feel 5-10% boosts would be enough

But as for the class specific ones; i think it would b cool to differentiate between specific types.

IE:
Androids
Healers
Enragers (Vegeta, Gohan)
All Rounders
Ki Specialists

Transformations don't really add that much more dynamic in the game. transformations are very permanent in nature ... meaning once u can achieve it, u have no real reason to ever b at a lower transformation. This stance idea though is something you could always potentially be changing and needing.
 
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You dont need to go though balanced. Think of it as an edited XOR switch between Offensive and Deffensive (O and D) with 0 being balanced.

You can switch one on or off, or switch to the other, but you cant activate both at the same time. Pressing the button once gives it a value of 1 and pressing it again gives it a 0, pressing the other button would give the active one a 0 and the other a 1

O D
0 0 - balanced (press D)
0 1 - defensive (press O)
1 0 - offensive (press O)
0 0 - balanced
1 1 - not possible (reverts to balanced)

That should work nicely enough ;)
We discussed the issue of what button would this be assigned to previously. I was thinking, how about the scroll up, scroll down? Would it be possible to bind it to that instead of just the going through beams? Or is scrolling through beams way too used and I'm the only one who only uses the numbers, because many times I find myself scrolling to the wrong attack and end up doing nothing in the air like a moron? :p
 
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Actually we are playing with the idea of making transformations costly. While it does give you a bigger KI pool, health bar, PL and increaes your speed, it also increases your KI drain. The idea was that SSJ 3 would be harder to controll than SSJ2 or SSJ1, but characters with permanent transformations would offer les of a boost on transformation in exchange for that KI drain not being there.

@Pumadace cant really use the scroll wheel by default. We kinda already bound it to quick access of teleport and turbo ^^;
 
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Stances in a FFA wouldn't mean that much, to many different player, but still they add a bit of "personal" preferred way of playing the game. But in 1 vs 1 matches i imagine it pretty usefull.
Grega i just said the key combo thing because i think about the following. You are in defensive state and want to get into offensive, so you have to press O first wich gets you into balanced -> anim and short wait time. Then you press D -> anim and wait time till animation is done. Key combos would avoid that because you have one combo for each stance means you don't have to go back to balanced to switch between offensive and defensive
 
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No. If you are in offensive, you just press D and it automatically switches you from O to D within a single stance change animation.

Basically:

stanceChange(buttonPress){
if(buttonPress == O){
if(stanceCheck(offensive)) return balanced;
return offensive;
}
if(buttonPress == D){
if(stanceCheck(defensive)) return balanced;
return defensive;
}
}

Well you get the idea. When you press one button you switch to that stance. If you want to switch to the other, just press the other button. When you want to go back to balanced, just press the button for the currently active stance. There is no need to switch back to balanced if you want to go from offensive to defensive as its a direct state change.
 
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Actually we are playing with the idea of making transformations costly. While it does give you a bigger KI pool, health bar, PL and increaes your speed, it also increases your KI drain. The idea was that SSJ 3 would be harder to controll than SSJ2 or SSJ1, but characters with permanent transformations would offer les of a boost on transformation in exchange for that KI drain not being there.

@Pumadace cant really use the scroll wheel by default. We kinda already bound it to quick access of teleport and turbo ^^;
On this aspect and stances:

Can't you have a less ki drain stance?
In 1.2 i really fail at keeping my ki up as it is now.
It wouldn't make it fun if i run out of ki faster as i would in esf right now.
And i'm talking about ssj fyi.

Against pro's i'm really having problems keeping it up cause each hit i land
on them is an achievement on it's own. So offensive is the only way for me to actually
have some fun. And ofcourse the ssj boost is a must have for someone like me that gets his
ass handed to him over and over again in this game lmao.

Maybe add an effect that reduces ki drain the more "experienced" a player is in that tranformation.
Let's say this is another bar to be filled while in that mode. the more it gets filled the less ki drained in that form.

And for those saying: "just get better."
That's not an option for a game like this.
My reaction is just too slow to get better at is.
Just like how i'm REALLY REALLY bad at a game called OSU.
Tried it cause a friend told me to and no. never again lmao.
 
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You would probably rather go for defensive then. Offensive makes you do more damage, but you recieve more damage to.

As for a stance that conserves KI. That would be balanced, since both offensive and defensive should drain it in exchange for benefits. As for transformations, that was the initial idea, but it might just end up working like it does in 1.2
 
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Ahh okay now i got it lol, need some more sleep -.-
 
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Actually we are playing with the idea of making transformations costly. While it does give you a bigger KI pool, health bar, PL and increaes your speed, it also increases your KI drain. The idea was that SSJ 3 would be harder to controll than SSJ2 or SSJ1, but characters with permanent transformations would offer les of a boost on transformation in exchange for that KI drain not being there.

@Pumadace cant really use the scroll wheel by default. We kinda already bound it to quick access of teleport and turbo ^^;
Awwww maaan them headaches!
 
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what thoughts do u guys have on character specific stances? IE different stance effects for Healers/androids/all rounders etc etc.
 
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what thoughts do u guys have on character specific stances? IE different stance effects for Healers/androids/all rounders etc etc.
There will most likely be no healing in the game as its either useless or prone to abuse.

Personally rather than have character speciffic stances, id go with the same stances, but character archtypes.

That way even the same basic stances will affect the character differently based on his own archtype.
 
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There will most likely be no healing in the game as its either useless or prone to abuse.

Personally rather than have character speciffic stances, id go with the same stances, but character archtypes.

That way even the same basic stances will affect the character differently based on his own archtype.
Can you expand on these Archtypes? I don't know them for the characters. I don't think theres been much discussion of them either. Who is what archtype? and what does each archtype mean?
 
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Well think he means like Vegeta is a KI user....he loves to use big planet shacking Beams and KI attacks, sure he's good in melee aswell but all the time when he got pissed of and wanted to finish a fight he used some massive KI attack.
Goku is an allrounder, he finishes off with melee and ki attacks.
Trunks then would be a melee user, maybe Gohan aswell. Trunk trained for strenght and never used that much ki attacks. He tried to beat cell by raw musclepower.
Gohan for me is a mixture between Melee and well call it speed. He was quite fast but dunno about that , not so sure

So at least 3 Archetypes, KI User, Melee User, Balanced allrounder.
 

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