Regarding melee

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Define single melee hit. Base damage for melee hits varies from 0 to something like 20 >.>

And that is not counting PL multipliers or tier attacks. Then there are also characer archtypes that play a role in damage calculations to take in to account.

Besides healing yourself with hitting people is abuseable as a run tactic.
 
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Is melee damage per attack from someone with less powerlevel than you 0-20? That would make healing up to 21HP. And it's not abusable at all (unlike running) because if you got 1HP, you have to do 20 successful melee attacks!
 
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Is melee damage per attack from someone with less powerlevel than you 0-20? That would make healing up to 21HP. And it's not abusable at all (unlike running) because if you got 1HP, you have to do 20 successful melee attacks!
Questions: let's say healing does happen after 20 punches

Do you also count each successful punch that got dealt in advanced melee, where usually multiple punches get dealt?

If yes to the previous question, what would then be the point of simple melee? If no, skip.

If 20 punches heal you for 20 hp, who really benefits from it, as in what type of player would be more likely to actually consistently land 20 punches to heal up?
 
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Jut lol so i have no common sense because i gave you a lot of reasons, explanations why it's unfair and doesn't remove luck but just stops ppl like you getting killed because on low hp by someone they think shouldn't be allowed to kill them. Nice try, that my friend makes everything you say abolutly nonsense and just proves that it's only about you can't handle the fact that even a noob might kill you. Also that you once again ignore all my explanations just prove that you don't have anything to say against them, you just say that i don't make common sense and then everything i say doesn't matter to you.

Enlighten me where it doesn't make sense what i said...pls do and with valid arugments and not just your common "Argument doesn't count...doesn't make sense" stuff :D
Only thing you mentioned is that luck has no place in a skill based game...luck got it's place everywhere when you can't accept that then pls got into a closed room and life there.
Luck can be you getting hit on low hp by (as i said and you ignored it) a noob who just is in the right time at the right place. Luck can be that they fly around turn left and see you there looking in the other direction.
Luck is a lot of things and you just CAN'T turn off luck without atificial shifting the gameplay benefits to those who think this and that lucky stuff shouldn't be in. That's not fairness thats trying to shift mechanics towars some whining group of ppl wich just can't handl that luck is part of our world.
 
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Is melee damage per attack from someone with less powerlevel than you 0-20? That would make healing up to 21HP. And it's not abusable at all (unlike running) because if you got 1HP, you have to do 20 successful melee attacks!
Its abuseable in the way of "Oh no im below 20 HP, im gonna run away and search for easy targets, hit them once from behind and run away again untill you get enough. Its a system that encourages you to run away from a fight when low on HP.

The issue is that you can not run away in games like UT. In ESF its easy.
 
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I think HP regeneration can work for piccolo, cell and buu characters:
1. When you are on low HP(< 20HP), you can use regeneration ability to restore health up to 30HP;
2. Regeneration process makes you idle and drains huge amount of powerlevel. You cant abuse it;

Players can use sensu beans if:
1. Few sensu beans randomly appear/disappear on random map places (you need luck to find them);
2. Sensu beans heal only if you have low HP(< 20HP) and restores up to 30HP;
3. It's not allowed in duel mode.
 
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I think HP regeneration can work for piccolo, cell and buu characters:
1. When you are on low HP(< 20HP), you can use regeneration ability to restore health up to 30HP;
2. Regeneration process makes you idle and drains huge amount of powerlevel. You cant abuse it;

Players can use sensu beans if:
1. Few sensu beans randomly appear/disappear on random map places (you need luck to find them);
2. Sensu beans heal only if you have low HP(< 20HP) and restores up to 30HP;
3. It's not allowed in duel mode.
Sensu beans are not a viable options. Also it has been discussed sever times that luck cannot be a factor into this. It either works in some way or it doesn't.

As for the processes you explained in the first two points, Buu already has that ability. Nothing more needs to be added.
 
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Do you also count each successful punch that got dealt in advanced melee, where usually multiple punches get dealt?
No. I said successful attacks, not automatic combo hits.

Enlighten me where it doesn't make sense what i said...pls do and with valid arugments and not just your common "Argument doesn't count...doesn't make sense" stuff :D
I really do not have to explain common sense to you. If you say that a lucky hit which resulted in death means that the death was deserved, it only shows that you are absolutely clueless and are not worth my time.

Its abuseable in the way of "Oh no im below 20 HP, im gonna run away and search for easy targets, hit them once from behind and run away again untill you get enough. Its a system that encourages you to run away from a fight when low on HP.
Nobody's gonna do that because it doesn't benefit the score that matters, which is powerlevel. The healing system is there not for you to try to abuse it, but for the game to try an reflect your skill more accurately. With this system, you don't get anything by running.
 
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No. I said successful attacks, not automatic combo hits.


I really do not have to explain common sense to you. If you say that a lucky hit which resulted in death means that the death was deserved, it only shows that you are absolutely clueless and are not worth my time.


Nobody's gonna do that because it doesn't benefit the score that matters, which is powerlevel. The healing system is there not for you to try to abuse it, but for the game to try an reflect your skill more accurately. With this system, you don't get anything by running.
What do you mean noone is gonna do that ^^

Have you meet the ingame community? The only time people are remotely interested in score is when its a duel other than that noone even looks at the score. The only things they look at is their HP bar and KI bar.
 
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So you say because i don't agree with you i'm not worth your time...excelent way of ignoring stuff :D that's how common sense of fanatics work :D
 
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What do you mean noone is gonna do that ^^

Have you meet the ingame community? The only time people are remotely interested in score is when its a duel other than that noone even looks at the score. The only things they look at is their HP bar and KI bar.
The in-game community you speak of will run no matter what. Healing system changes nothing besides making the score more accurate. The tactics may be cheap, but the score is still achieved by skill. It's FFA, after all. Your argument could be used for powerlevel as well. One will run to hit noobs until their powerlevel is enough to have better chances against a better player.

But then I'm not even saying that my suggested healing system is perfect for such a game. Anyone who's not lazy, feel free to suggest your own. I wasted too much time and effort getting the idea across for why a skill-based game needs skill to be reflected fairly.

So you say because i don't agree with you i'm not worth your time...excelent way of ignoring stuff :D that's how common sense of fanatics work :D
As you can see I'm more than willing to discuss with people who don't agree with me. You're not worth my time because you don't make any sense, not because you disagree.
 
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The in-game community you speak of will run no matter what. Healing system changes nothing besides making the score more accurate. The tactics may be cheap, but the score is still achieved by skill. It's FFA, after all. Your argument could be used for powerlevel as well. One will run to hit noobs until their powerlevel is enough to have better chances against a better player.

But then I'm not even saying that my suggested healing system is perfect for such a game. Anyone who's not lazy, feel free to suggest your own. I wasted too much time and effort getting the idea across for why a skill-based game needs skill to be reflected fairly.
Yeah but see, this is what you keep ignoring. It is not actually fair. Because it doesn't give anyone the same chances, well it does technically but not everyone can use them. That is what fair usually means. So what your saying now is, oh there is this power level system that can already be abused like this. Let's add another system that can be abused.

And you ignored a question.

I'll ask again: If 20 successful punches heals a player for 20 hp, which one of these players do you think is most likely to get healed by successfully landing 20 punches? The noob, the casual, the intermediate or the pro?
 
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Yeah but see, this is what you keep ignoring. It is not actually fair.
In your world fair is something that can be freely used to the same effect by everyone regardless of skill, however that's not how it works. What I'm suggesting is completely fair in a skill-based game and that is proven by other game features that favor skill.

Because it doesn't give anyone the same chances, well it does technically but not everyone can use them.
Everyone can use them. How effectively depends on skill, which is what the game is about.

So what your saying now is, oh there is this power level system that can already be abused like this. Let's add another system that can be abused.
Powerlevel system is not abusable as far as a skill-based game is concerned. Neither would healing system.

I'll ask again: If 20 successful punches heals a player for 20 hp, which one of these players do you think is most likely to get healed by successfully landing 20 punches? The noob, the casual, the intermediate or the pro?
The more skilled player. Because it's fair for a more skilled player to... well... be more skilled at stuff.

Pros will still die, but only deservedly, not due to some mere luck.
 
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The more skilled player. Because it's fair for a more skilled player to... well... be more skilled at stuff.

Pros will still die, but only deservedly, not due to some mere luck.
Exactly. Good answer. The more skilled player. But your saying it's fair because he's more skilled at stuff. Now. I would like you to explain to me your definition of fair, by telling me why a more skilled player needs a system that he can use to stay alive when he is more skilled. He is already on top of the food-chain. He is already an apex predator. He is more skilled. Yes it's fair in the sense that it rewards people because of their skill, but this completely ****s over everyone else. Now this skilled player not only already dominates the score-board but he is not going to die unless more people coordinate against him.

See you and I both know that this game is already (can't think of another example so bare with this for now) a Tribes ascend type of difficult game. The people who know how to play this are already at a massive advantage to casuals and noobs. The thing you're so much against that pros could die of, this luck, which is essentially a luck factor, it may happen it may not, is one of the few thing, besides the aforementioned coordinated multiple attacks, or besides someone suddenly turning pro in a manner of seconds, that would allow an upstart, a nobody a newbie to land some sort of killing blow, to at least get a kick of murdering that pest whose been killing everybody else, for the past 15 minutes.

So here's what you're saying. You want pros to die deservedly. So what does that mean? That means that a pro will either die, when he's outnumbered and outmatched to a point where even he can't keep up with the assaults, or by another pro, effectively turning this into a pro vs pro and noobs vs noobs only type of game even more than it already is. You're healing system will create an even larger gap between someone just starting the game and someone who has played the game for quite a while. And this is literally for no good reason. That luck factor that you view as a stain on your streaks has a pathetic chance of happening. Sure internet connection problems happen, issues happen. People die because of those. But guess the irony. Your healing system doesn't answer people dying because of the type of luck: oh a pro got a lag spike and now he is standing in the air doing nothing, because oh the irony, if that lag spike is long enough, he will still die even with your system.

What your system does do perfectly is separate pro from noob so much that the path for a noob to eventually become a pro is now more painful, because the pros he will have to fight to learn his stuff are now quite close to immortal, and less fun because now there would be no such thing as a lucky punch. No such thing as a kill after dying 5 or more times trying. And all that because you think it's unjust that people every once in a while get lucky?

Sure some people may enjoy this type of grinding, of dying over and over and over to their betters and not even getting to feel like they at least did something to them, but my bet is that the majority, especially the one that will start appearing, once the game releases would get frustrated with this. Because who the hell really wants to play a deathmatch game where the only death being done in the match is by them. You probably would, but a lot will say shit ain't nobody got time for that. And they'll quit. Welcome to servers that split the population up. Welcome to less chances of finding servers with lots of people of all sorts of skills fighting out in these wide open fields. Welcome to only pros servers and locked servers where people only play with the people they know. Welcome to people deciding: you know what, I'll just play with bots only now.

I want this game to last for years once it comes out. I want those large maps to be filled all the time by all sorts of players, I don't want large maps populated only by a mere 6 people. I want the chaos I was talking about. The large battlefield filled with people blasting and flying all over the place and most of all I want that shit to last for years to come. I don't want this game to become like tribes ascend where the large player base only lasted for a short while and now it's mostly abandoned and anyone who is new or unskilled at this game might as well play minesweeper because shit if he's ever going to do anything in the game that's worthwhile ever. But for this game to last. For new people to want play this game and get better at it, you need to have some incentives for them to get better at it, not take them away from them, not stack the odds against them even more.

It's like a casino wanting to attract more gamblers to spend shit inside them and turn a profit. People won't play if they are told their chances are complete shit. They will play when they can be fooled they have a chance. Think about this, or be cheap and call TL; DR if you want to. It's your call.
 
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Exactly. Good answer. The more skilled player. But your saying it's fair because he's more skilled at stuff. Now. I would like you to explain to me your definition of fair, by telling me why a more skilled player needs a system that he can use to stay alive when he is more skilled.
It's fair as long as it's about skill and not luck. Simple as that.

He is already on top of the food-chain. He is already an apex predator. He is more skilled.
That's like saying that rich people shouldn't get paid properly for their job because they're already rich anyway.

Yes it's fair in the sense that it rewards people because of their skill, but this completely ****s over everyone else.
It doesn't **** over anyone. It prevents luck being a factor in a skill-based game, but it still means little considering kills and deaths are quite irrelevant to the actual stacking of players in the scoreboard. Healing system does not hinder anyone's ability to score hits and thus score points.
 
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It's fair as long as it's about skill and not luck. Simple as that.


That's like saying that rich people shouldn't get paid properly for their job because they're already rich anyway.


It doesn't **** over anyone. It prevents luck being a factor in a skill-based game, but it still means little considering kills and deaths are quite irrelevant to the actual stacking of players in the scoreboard. Healing system does not hinder anyone's ability to score hits and thus score points.
To lazy to multi quote so I'll just put it like this.

1. What types of game have you been playing?

2. That is a capitalist problem not a game problem. Yes the rich shouldn't be paid the ridiculous amounts they get paid, mostly for doing jack shit (and most of it being received from 'legalized' bribery, all sorts of tax evasion etc.) but that is a completely different topic. This is not about having privileges in order to be able to live and afford ridiculously expensive cars, for no reason. This is about having the privilege to 'enjoy' a game.

3. Back to question one. What types of game have you been playing? I'd like you to name one game where things are so tightly controlled that it is literally impossible for someone to get a lucky shot/punch/spell anything you could think of in. What game out there (not just video game but also real games) where someone of lower skill can never beat someone of higher skill even if said higher skilled player slips up. That is impossible. Fighting a luck factor in a game is like Don Quixote fighting the windmills. Now if the windmills represent the luck factor, unlike them, this actually technically exists, but not in the touchable spectrum of assistance, so it still cannot be fought. You know what game out there is technically speaking impossible to win because of luck? X and O. Technically speaking there can be no such thing as a winner in the standard X and O game, because right placement of the X or the O will always mean there will be a draw. Why can there be winners if two humans play it? Because on occasion someone slips up. But a battle of X and O between two pros (as in people who are skilled at paying attention and focusing for long amounts of time/ or just two properly programmed computers) will always result in a draw. When it's played like that, then that is a game where there is literally no such thing as luck. Tell me is that what you think ESF:F can be?

Now let's have a look at the human mind a little. Dying in video games. No one likes that. People will always try to prevent dying from happening, even if you say dying is not important to the scoreboard (even though you ignore the fact that staying alive more also means more chances to get a higher score) Once again let's say there is a healing system 20 non-combo punches = healing. Ok. Casual player gets really hurt. Before he got hurt he managed to deal 4 punches. Now he's on his quest to heal so 16 simple melee punches to go. Here goes he lands punch number 5 punch number 6, 7, 8... plow *he get's killed by someone combo swooping him. Some time later same scenario he had 10 punches previously. 11, 12, 13, plow... mua mua, no healing for you, you just got caught in a blast. Similar scenario later 6 followed by 7,8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 he's on a roll, woops some a hole came out of nowhere and ownd him. rinse and repeat, 14, going to 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, omg it's amost there, woops no the last one teleported away and counter attacked you and now you're toast. Does this look like fun to you? A game where you have to keep chasing an almost unobtainable objective constantly, that is made worse by a reset after death. Now you might be saying why is he chasing that objective, all he has to do is score hits to get points, who cares if he dies, when he doesn't loose anything?

Answer: he still dies. And unless there is some instantaneous and I do mean instantaneous respawn, which I doubt, he still wastes precious seconds staying dead. When you tell someone they are about to die, unless they are clinically depressed to the point of going suicidal, everyone else is going to do the thing that will help prevent their dying. That is not just basic psychology, that is basic human instinct. This is what the game will turn into for most people just starting out/ or getting the hang of a the game. A race where you have punch someone 20 times to stay alive. Advanced melee? Why? What's the point. It doesn't heal me. Throws? For what it either does nothing or it does some damage. At the very most temporarily gets rid of a pest. Special trigger combos? Maybe to see what they look like. But they still don't heal. Now if this was some ESF:F separate mode, where you can actually play like this, I'd delve into that occasionally, you probably would live there. But if this is the main game? **** that! Where's my controller, I'll play the only DBZ game for PC for the rest of my life. Where did I put those 60$ now? Oh wait. Even better. I'll play with bots. Because once you learn their patterns there can technically also be no luck in there and I can be the top dog or the top loser if I want to there.

Once again, when you make a game very hard-core and grindy and you'll eventually get empty maps with a very dedicated few players still sticking around, that you will play with over and over and over. But if you level the playing field at least a little, enough so that it would seem that pros are also men, not gods, then people will have incentives to play, to try new things.

Now there is always planet hlev server, no noobs allowed, which you can easily create and maintain and restrict anything you think is lucky, a.k.a. planet boring. But don't screw over everybody else's fun just because you're so frustrated there is such a thing as luck in a skill-based game, which literally (I have to stop using that word).... actually exists in EVERY single skill-based game out there, whether a video game or a regular game.
 
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1. What types of game have you been playing?
As far as multiplayer games go, nowadays I play CSGO, DayZ, Movie Battles II, Blade Symphony mostly. Sometimes UT3, GMod.

2. That is a capitalist problem not a game problem. Yes the rich shouldn't be paid the ridiculous amounts they get paid, mostly for doing jack shit (and most of it being received from 'legalized' bribery, all sorts of tax evasion etc.) but that is a completely different topic. This is not about having privileges in order to be able to live and afford ridiculously expensive cars, for no reason. This is about having the privilege to 'enjoy' a game.
That's not what I meant. A person that does their job should still get paid properly regardless if they're rich or not. How does one enjoy a game? By scoring lucky kills? That's not how you enjoy a skill-based game. You enjoy a skill-based game by defeating enemies using skill.

3. Back to question one. What types of game have you been playing? I'd like you to name one game where things are so tightly controlled that it is literally impossible for someone to get a lucky shot/punch/spell anything you could think of in.
I don't know of such a game. Indies/mods may exist that do that, but AAA titles try to appeal to casuals for cash grabs, so they can't do that. That's absolutely irrelevant though. What we're discussing is lessening the chance of defeating someone by luck, not just making a successful attack on them. Because, you know, defeating someone by luck is not fair towards the opponent. Lucky hits are not related to skill, therefore should not be punished by death in a skill-based game.

Anyway I will ask you to keep your points short, I really can't be bothered to read your walls of text considering you're barely able to write anything worthwhile. Healing system minimizes the luck factor, does not lessen anyone's chances to score points and prevents noobs from defeating pros by luck. Consider all of these points when arguing, not just the latter one.
 
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That's not what I meant. A person that does their job should still get paid properly regardless if they're rich or not. How does one enjoy a game? By scoring lucky kills? That's not how you enjoy a skill-based game. You enjoy a skill-based game by defeating enemies using skill.
Minimizes the luck factor and allows pros and only pros to be more powerfuuuuul. I also remembered that when you die you keep loosing your PL rendering the process of advancing to SSJ, etc. that much slower leaving your with less resources to work with and weakeeeer, but never mind that. That's not what I'm quoting.

I'm going to assume you one day start a multiplayer game that you're completely unfamiliar with. Like everyone else you're a noob at it at first. You get into a match and there is a pro in there who kind of owns you throughout most of the game. Now I want you to answer me this honestly.

You manage to get lucky after a while and finally kill him for the first time. Do you, or do you (once again as the noob) get at least a bit of enjoyment that you managed to kill him? (even thought it was luck)

To give you a better image: Let's just say you lobbed a grenade somewhere and it turned out he got caught in it's blast and died.
 
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It's my enjoyment for getting a lucky kill against pro's irritation for getting killed by luck. That doesn't reflect skill in a skill-based game at all and thus shouldn't be there. Stop thinking from a noob's perspective only. It's not a game for ******* casuals. It's a skill-based game, deal with it. Non-casuals will learn to play and then have better chances vs pros. Noobs can play on servers with healing disabled.

Also I'd like an official confirmation that you lose PL by dying in ESFF. Even if that's so, there should be PL catchup that helps noobs.
 
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It's my enjoyment for getting a lucky kill against pro's irritation for getting killed by luck. That doesn't reflect skill in a skill-based game at all and thus shouldn't be there. Stop thinking from a noob's perspective only. It's not a game for ******* casuals. It's a skill-based game, deal with it. Non-casuals will learn to play and then have better chances vs pros. Noobs can play on servers with healing disabled.
No, see I only show you the perspective of noobs, because you only show the perspective of above casuals to pros, hlev. You suggest your system does X and I'm showing you the possible consequences. Also I can't speak for pros in ESF, don't play that game much anymore. And I've gone over this non-casuals will learn to play and have better chances when they don't feel like they're getting screwed over. When they feel like there is actually a chance that they can kill someone, because they know they can also die and that they don't have a safety mechanism that they can use not to. Again fool the gambler, don't tell him that his chances are below 1%.

However this point "Noobs can play on servers with healing disabled." could lead to a good middle ground. Since it's so easy for people to create their own servers in the source engine, could there be a tickable option of some form of healing, that people could select/deselect?

Also good question. Do you loose PL when dying in final?
 

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