Regarding melee

[hleV]

Let's have a regeneration system because all other games out there have a regen system and my god this game needs a regen system, because all other games out there have a regen system and this game will never be accepted in their exclusive group, unless it has some sort of regen system. I mean Nosgoth, Battlefield, Team Fortress 2, Call of Duty 12,13,14,15,16,156, Warface, Any other first person/third person shooter that isn't ARMA or similar to that! This is a very exclusive club guys! Seriously guys Buu and Krilin have to drop candy from their arse that other can pick up to regenerate!

ESF doesn't need a regeneration system just because other games have it. ESF needs a regeneration system because it needs a regeneration system. Other games are examples that it's been done before in various forms and it was a good decision.

Uhm i also don't see how the scoreboard reflects that you got killed by a noob...i never ever saw any names behind each single death...you don't make sense, your arguments are invalid

Deaths are added regardless if you deserved it or not, which is why the scoreboard does not reflect one's skill accurately.

Then healthpacks in UT are fair because you don't have to be better than others to get them

Which is what would be with the healing system in ESF, as well. Anyway regarding UT, I guess you haven't played it because pros easily collect most of the important armor pickups and they know the time when they are going to respawn so they can come back for them, making them quite immortal as far as noobs are concerned.

You can be the bester player on the server when they are taken or to far away and someone just shot a grenade in your direction you're dead.

Personally I haven't seen such scenario happen often, which suggests that the luck factor isn't that great. In ESF you could be blown up 10 times in a row right after you spawned (which is why spawn invulnerable time is there). That does not involve my example of a 1v1 when a pro has low hp and gets hit accidently.

That's why they work. What you suggest is something "I'm better than you so i think you don't deserve to be able to kill me" <- biggest problem there , you are not in the position to choose whether another player deserves a kill or not.

Elaborate. How exactly a player of much worse skill than me deserves to defeat me?

And pls explain me the following. Where is the difference between a noob getting you with one hit because you're on low hp or a pro getting you with a hit when you're low on hp ?

The difference is that a pro likely landed that hit due to the fact that he's skilled in the game. He deserved to hit you because of skill. Sure, it's not fair when it's a pro with full HP vs pro with low HP, but at least you're not punished by death for simple opponent's luck.

Let me just say this:

Pros:

• Healing system gives the opportunity for anyone to survive longer, and seeking survival is fun, especially when you can still play the game (fight) in the process.
• Healing system does not affect the overall score.
• Healing system lessens luck factor, thus allows the game that is revolved around skill to better reflect said skill.

Cons:

• Healing system makes it harder for noobs to score kills (but not hits, which is what is counted towards score), which might be irritating to casuals who want easy kills.

Now compare the pros and cons and make a conclusion.

 

[pumadace2000]

ESF doesn't need a regeneration system just because other games have it. ESF needs a regeneration system because it needs a regeneration system. Other games are examples that it's been done before in various forms and it was a good decision.

You know, if no regen system = bad decision, I'm going to enjoy the living hell out of that bad decision.

While you rage about it enjoy listening to the little phrase from 01:54 from this video
[video=youtube;2bVAoVlFYf0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bVAoVlFYf0[/video]

 

[hleV]

I will not rage at all. I will just call the team and any supporters of this stupid and be done with it. Not a single argument was provided that would prove no-health-regen to be a better choice that I didn't counter and we're just going in circles.

And I have no intention watching a video that was posted by a stupid person.

 

[Ryokeen]

So and you magically know that a person who just joined the server is a pro and hit you or isn't and hit you ?
And dude i played UT a lot...as a pro, same with q3. And knowing respawn times and locations is something completly different that getting hp because you beat up other players. A Pro can never get all HP packs in a row simply because then you would go predictable routes and he would never do that.
What made me smile is that you said

Deaths are added regardless if you deserved it or not, which is why the scoreboard does not reflect one's skill accurately.

wich just means that no game where you can be killed by a noob and has a scoreboard wich does not reflect one's skill accurately.
Don't you get that even stating someone doesn't deserve to kill you is enough reason for YES THEY DID !

And youre Pro's are just...Bullshit.

Healing does not affect score ? Thought you don't want to be killed by noobs when low on HP after 10 kills , so it indeeds affects score.
Healing does not less luck factor...it prevents cry-babys to get killed because they fought long enough and are low on hp.

And for hp for dmg dealt that would translate to UT hp for well dmg dealt not healthpack pickups where the rule applies "who first comes get's it"
Oh you're talking about 1vs1 and pro gets hits accidently...just one question...if you think that the other player then doesn't deserve that kill why do you do a 1vs1 against him ? If he's just some random guy wich hit's you while you were swooping around in a 1vs9 or 1 vs15 or generally FFA macht then...no point to complain <- why ? because that's FFA whoever gets a hit on you gets a hit. If that hit kills you you're dead.

And you rly should think more about you're behavior, you rly think you are the greatest on earth don't you ?
I just give up you say

Not a single argument was provided that would prove no-health-regen to be a better choice that I didn't counter and we're just going in circles

Yeah you counter them in a way where you just say "Naah you're wrong i'm right" or "Not valid" , or you simply ignore it.
You won't ever understand what a good game rly is, you will never understand what fairness is and what truly skilled players or even good players are

 

[pumadace2000]

I will not rage at all. I will just call the team and any supporters of this stupid and be done with it. Not a single argument was provided that would prove no-health-regen to be a better choice that I didn't counter and we're just going in circles.

And I have no intention watching a video that was posted by a stupid person.

Oooooh make way for mister smart pants here. His pants are smarter than you are so you can only imagine how smart their wearer actually is. You can manipulate conversations hlev. Yes, that makes you smart. No denying it. Hope you one day work in PR or in Politics because you are made for them.

But game design-wise. You're just generic. You're the 'others did this, so let's also do this' guy. You're a regular idea guy that over-promotes and over-estimates it and ignores anything that may be wrong with it. You can accept that (you won't, because ego) or you can call people stupid, thus showing that you're clearly the better and clever man.

Or you can sing along, "Give up, give up/ tune in and slam the door. Give up, give up/ On the rise for radiation! Give up, give up/ It runs perfect woman!

 

[hleV]

So and you magically know that a person who just joined the server is a pro and hit you or isn't and hit you ?

If health system was in and done correctly, even if he hits me once I shouldn't be punished by death. If he manages to hit me again (and kill me) and then sure, he's not a complete noob.

And dude i played UT a lot...as a pro, same with q3. And knowing respawn times and locations is something completly different that getting hp because you beat up other players.

I'm not talking about any particular kind of healing system so I have no idea why are you bringing up "beat players = more hp" every single time.

A Pro can never get all HP packs in a row simply because then you would go predictable routes and he would never do that.

Not predictable to noobs.

What made me smile is that you said wich just means that no game where you can be killed by a noob and has a scoreboard wich does not reflect one's skill accurately.
Don't you get that even stating someone doesn't deserve to kill you is enough reason for YES THEY DID !

And youre Pro's are just...Bullshit.

I have no idea what are you rambling about.

Healing does not affect score ? Thought you don't want to be killed by noobs when low on HP after 10 kills , so it indeeds affects score.

Score is powerlevel-based. Powerlevel is gained by scoring hits, not kills.

Healing does not less luck factor...it prevents cry-babys to get killed because they fought long enough and are low on hp.

It prevents pros from being killed via luck. Whether pros are crybabies or not is irrelevant.

And for hp for dmg dealt that would translate to UT hp for well dmg dealt not healthpack pickups where the rule applies "who first comes get's it"

Once again you're talking about a very particular healing system which I am not. I am talking about healing system as an idea in general.

Oh you're talking about 1vs1 and pro gets hits accidently...just one question...if you think that the other player then doesn't deserve that kill why do you do a 1vs1 against him ?

Why wouldn't I? It's the skill-based game's job to make it look skill-based, not players'.

If he's just some random guy wich hit's you while you were swooping around in a 1vs9 or 1 vs15 or generally FFA macht then...no point to complain <- why ? because that's FFA whoever gets a hit on you gets a hit. If that hit kills you you're dead.

Because you know you're taking risks when going against multiple people. You cannot see all the angles where opponents are at one time.

And you rly should think more about you're behavior, you rly think you are the greatest on earth don't you ?

I'm a ****. Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Yeah you counter them in a way where you just say "Naah you're wrong i'm right" or "Not valid" , or you simply ignore it.

I only apply this when the person I'm arguing with has absolutely no common sense.

You won't ever understand what a good game rly is, you will never understand what fairness is and what truly skilled players or even good players are

Cool. Now elaborate if you wish to be taken seriously.

 

[Grega]

Stop right there.

We are not adding a healing system because you requested it. Kills are part of gameplay and if you were in a 1 v 9 first and after you killed them off the noob who is number 10 gets the kill, then you are essentially in a 1 v 10. The 9 others ground you down and number 10 got the kill. Its fair and shows that 10 people were needed to kill you. That is a representation of skill.

As for the reasons for not adding a health regen system. Its simple. Pickup systems dont work in ESF. They are abuseable, regen on hits/kills is essentially a kill streak situation and that is neither balanced nor fair. It does not bring down the luck factor at all since the noob can easilly get 2 lucky hits on you and kills you then. Are you going to scream foul again just because it was clear that he did not have the skill to beat you and just got 2 lucky hits?

You are given a set amount of HP, not more, and it will only replenish when you die. The challenge is not staying alive, its taking down as many guys as possible befor you get taken down. If you see it as something else, then you are not playing the right game.

 

[Ryokeen]

Other healing systems, like pickups, sensu beans, buus abusive healing were allready ruled out, so pls enlighten me what exactly you have in mind as some sort of healing system wich prevents beeing killed when you deserve beeing killed because you don't have enought hp left to survive even 1 hit.

Because you know you're taking risks when going against multiple people. You cannot see all the angles where opponents are at one time

And that is exactly the reason why you get a so called lucky hit from another. You can't see everything if a noob is in your dead angle just by well just because he is and doesn't know doesn't mean he does not deserve the final hit on you.

If you say why shouldn't you go 1vs1 agains a noob then don't complain that it might happen that they kill you at some point because you killed them a lot.

I only apply this when the person I'm arguing with has absolutely no common sense.

Means whenever it suits you

Okay again..a good game doesn't punish nor gives adventage just because some think other don't deserve something. A good game doesn't give good players even more benefits and possibilitys to beat others. Fairness is about equal chances, equal chances are : 2 Players start with the same HP, KI and so on. When someone is low on HP because he is alive for 10 minutes and killing everybody...that's fair because that's how reality is there IS some point where you will loose no matter what because you're worn out.
And i know no good players or pros in any game who complain about getting killed by a lucky hit from some noob. Not in a way that they want a game to be changed. A good player just says "Yeah okay he had luck, won't happen anytime soon again" and moves you. You on the other want a game to be changes because you think you're so awesome(that's why i said you think you're the greatest on earth) that noobs don't deserve to land even 1 hit on you. I say it that way because a lucky hit is all a noob can hope for at the beginning. From that one they get response, get motivation to get better and have fun playing the game.

If we would do what you want us to do we could just say "Oh you never played high ranked in the ESL? Then sry no kills for you" You try to turn the game into a skill-mesurement programm for ppl who think they are some elite group.

And that's rly it now, you will never understand those points, will just "conter" them with totally empty arguments, no examples and nothing because well you can't be wrong right ? And it's just too irretating that a noob might kill you

 

[pumadace2000]

Stop right there.

We are not adding a healing system because you requested it. Kills are part of gameplay and if you were in a 1 v 9 first and after you killed them off the noob who is number 10 gets the kill, then you are essentially in a 1 v 10. The 9 others ground you down and number 10 got the kill. Its fair and shows that 10 people were needed to kill you. That is a representation of skill.

As for the reasons for not adding a health regen system. Its simple. Pickup systems dont work in ESF. They are abuseable, regen on hits/kills is essentially a kill streak situation and that is neither balanced nor fair. It does not bring down the luck factor at all since the noob can easilly get 2 lucky hits on you and kills you then. Are you going to scream foul again just because it was clear that he did not have the skill to beat you and just got 2 lucky hits?

You are given a set amount of HP, not more, and it will only replenish when you die. The challenge is not staying alive, its taking down as many guys as possible befor you get taken down. If you see it as something else, then you are not playing the right game.

Oh no Grega. Now this means that hlev must reply to your post and call you stupid. Because

I will just call the team and any supporters of this stupid and be done with it.

You know. Get ready man!

 

[Enishi]

A good game doesn't give good players even more benefits and possibilitys to beat others. Fairness is about equal chances, equal chances are : 2 Players start with the same HP, KI and so on. When someone is low on HP because he is alive for 10 minutes and killing everybody...that's fair because that's how reality is there IS some point where you will loose no matter what because you're worn out.
If we would do what you want us to do we could just say "Oh you never played high ranked in the ESL? Then sry no kills for you" You try to turn the game into a skill-mesurement programm for ppl who think they are some elite group.

This. A Pro with HP regeneration would copletely destroy newbies (50-100 deaths in a row)...

 

[Nedgi]

So no more buus regeneration in 1.3 ?

 

[Grega]

So no more buus regeneration in 1.3 ?

Thats kinda the plan.

 

[hleV]

Okay, two facts to keep in mind: 1. It's a game based on skill; 2. Kills/Deaths are irrelevant and don't make the score.
The point I'm making: The stats in a skill-based game should reflect skill as accurately as possible and for that, skilled players should be able to make up for rarely-happening accidents with skill. My additional point is that trying to preserve one's life is fun.

I don't like to die, that's pretty obvious. I am fine dying to a player who deserved it, which is a player who does not just simply get lucky once in a while due to various factors like FPS/lag spike/etc. Note that I don't like to die, not get hit, which the score is all about!. Yet, deaths are calculated and displayed, right? If you're displaying them, it means they're something to go by when rating a player's skill. Luck can affect those stats, making them inaccurate for skill rating.

So, how exactly a system that allows one to preserve their life longer than just a set HP number an unfair feature? The primary score, which is powerlevel, is not affected. The only difference it makes is that a pro does not have an added undeserved death and a noob does not have an added undeserved kill. I don't know, that sounds pretty damn fair. It's the system that dooms you from the beginning without allowing you to do anything about it that's unfair.

Now with that out of the way, feel free to point out how exactly is this all unfair and gives pros such a great advantage.

 

[Grega]

Okay, two facts to keep in mind: 1. It's a game based on skill; 2. Kills/Deaths are irrelevant and don't make the score.
The point I'm making: The stats in a skill-based game should reflect skill as accurately as possible and for that, skilled players should be able to make up for rarely-happening accidents with skill. My additional point is that trying to preserve one's life is fun.

I don't like to die, that's pretty obvious. I am fine dying to a player who deserved it, which is a player who does not just simply get lucky once in a while due to various factors like FPS/lag spike/etc. Note that I don't like to die, not get hit, which the score is all about!. Yet, deaths are calculated and displayed, right? If you're displaying them, it means they're something to go by when rating a player's skill. Luck can affect those stats, making them inaccurate for skill rating.

So, how exactly a system that allows one to preserve their life longer than just a set HP number an unfair feature? The primary score, which is powerlevel, is not affected. The only difference it makes is that a pro does not have an added undeserved death and a noob does not have an added undeserved kill. I don't know, that sounds pretty damn fair. It's the system that dooms you from the beginning without allowing you to do anything about it that's unfair.

Now with that out of the way, feel free to point out how exactly is this all unfair and gives pros such a great advantage.

You said it yourself. Deaths are irrelevant to the score. They mean nothing. And i told you before, if you want to complain about them being displayed, then go ingame and find the players who were so against us removing them and complain to them. End of story. It was the communitys wish to have them shown, it was a huge debate round the notion that they are non relevant information, and in the end we decided to do what the community wanted.

And no you make misstakes, they cost you, little by little untill you respawn. Its simple, its direct and its fair for everyone, not just one group.

 

[Ryokeen]

It's funny how you can say that kills/deaths are irrelevant and don't make up the score and still a death is so important to you that you want some mechanic ingame wich prevents you beeing killed by someone who only you think doesn't deserve to kill you.
Do you even realise what you say ? You say they don't DESERVE it to kill you because they were just lucky 1 or 2 times while getting killed themselfs over and over again. Do you think you can fairly judge who deserves a kill or not ? Because you act like you do.

A game doesn't judge, it doesn't say "Nah i think that was just a lucky hit, so it shouldn't kill him" wich isn't a fair judgement. What is fair is that you didn't have enought hp left to survive another hit no matter who hit you, or what hit you or how skilled that player was, that is the point you're ignoring, end of discussion.
If you think that doesn't reflect the skill of a player that well think about it...rly...think...do it...then you might see that as Grega stated, you did a lot of small mistakes before, everything wich leads to the fact that you didn't survive the next attack. If you would've survived that one then, what's about the possibility that another noob gets a lucky hit ? Just after you were saved from beein killed by your mystical system..Again no death..And then ? what if 10 noobs just get pissed of and target you, each one with not enough skill to kill you, but trying to often that they get a hit ? What then ? Still no death on your side ? Or do they suddenly deserve to kill you ?

The only difference it makes is that a pro does not have an added undeserved death and a noob does not have an added undeserved kill. I don't know, that sounds pretty damn fair. It's the system that dooms you from the beginning without allowing you to do anything about it that's unfair

If you really think that is unfair..you got some weird twisted sense of fairness. What you suggest is a system wich dooms noobs to not get a single kill even if they were lucky to be at the right time at the right place to finish you off with 1 hit.
To be more precise , since you're so goddamn concerned about prefectly representing skill...Skill is way better represented when you have an equal amount of HP you can fight with until you run out of it, because preconditions are the same for everyone regardless of their skill. Skill is what you do with the amount of HP you have, nothing more nothing less. If you're low on HP and say for yourself kills/deaths are irrelevant and don't make the score then be happy to get killed and respawn with full HP so have a fresh start.

If you just don't like to die and try to get around dying by saying noobs don't even deserve to kill you then you stated clearly enought that you don't want a (yet to be excatly specified by you, pls do that, i asked it in my last post but that got completly ignored by you) life extending mechanic because you think it's more fair. You don't like deaths at all and can't stand the point that a noob might finish you off with a lucky hit.

Or if you get number better, simple said what you want is : Good Player ability to kill noobs = 5 <- vanilla ESF; Good Player with a system you want to be added ability to kill noobs = 8; (Cause you are more skilled and can benifit from your system)
Noob ability to kill you = 0.1 (The mighty evil lucky hit) <- Vanilla ESF; Noob ability with your whatever it is system that prevents him from killing you because YOU say he doesn't deserve it = 0 (Cause you don't want lucky hit to be able to kill you)

Easy enough ?

 

[pumadace2000]

It's funny how you can say that kills/deaths are irrelevant and don't make up the score and still a death is so important to you that you want some mechanic ingame wich prevents you beeing killed by someone who only you think doesn't deserve to kill you.
Do you even realise what you say ? You say they don't DESERVE it to kill you because they were just lucky 1 or 2 times while getting killed themselfs over and over again. Do you think you can fairly judge who deserves a kill or not ? Because you act like you do.

A game doesn't judge, it doesn't say "Nah i think that was just a lucky hit, so it shouldn't kill him" wich isn't a fair judgement. What is fair is that you didn't have enought hp left to survive another hit no matter who hit you, or what hit you or how skilled that player was, that is the point you're ignoring, end of discussion.
If you think that doesn't reflect the skill of a player that well think about it...rly...think...do it...then you might see that as Grega stated, you did a lot of small mistakes before, everything wich leads to the fact that you didn't survive the next attack. If you would've survived that one then, what's about the possibility that another noob gets a lucky hit ? Just after you were saved from beein killed by your mystical system..Again no death..And then ? what if 10 noobs just get pissed of and target you, each one with not enough skill to kill you, but trying to often that they get a hit ? What then ? Still no death on your side ? Or do they suddenly deserve to kill you ?


If you really think that is unfair..you got some weird twisted sense of fairness. What you suggest is a system wich dooms noobs to not get a single kill even if they were lucky to be at the right time at the right place to finish you off with 1 hit.
To be more precise , since you're so goddamn concerned about prefectly representing skill...Skill is way better represented when you have an equal amount of HP you can fight with until you run out of it, because preconditions are the same for everyone regardless of their skill. Skill is what you do with the amount of HP you have, nothing more nothing less. If you're low on HP and say for yourself kills/deaths are irrelevant and don't make the score then be happy to get killed and respawn with full HP so have a fresh start.

If you just don't like to die and try to get around dying by saying noobs don't even deserve to kill you then you stated clearly enought that you don't want a (yet to be excatly specified by you, pls do that, i asked it in my last post but that got completly ignored by you) life extending mechanic because you think it's more fair. You don't like deaths at all and can't stand the point that a noob might finish you off with a lucky hit.

Or if you get number better, simple said what you want is : Good Player ability to kill noobs = 5 <- vanilla ESF; Good Player with a system you want to be added ability to kill noobs = 8; (Cause you are more skilled and can benifit from your system)
Noob ability to kill you = 0.1 (The mighty evil lucky hit) <- Vanilla ESF; Noob ability with your whatever it is system that prevents him from killing you because YOU say he doesn't deserve it = 0 (Cause you don't want lucky hit to be able to kill you)

Easy enough ?

No, you still didn't explain anything. Nothing you said had anything to do wit why UT was so great.


Sorry hlevs bad jokes are pretty much responses. Yes, that was written that way on purpose.

 

[Ryokeen]

Love that Pic Hugo was awesome as Agent Smith.

I think i'll code in a lucky Hit EasterEgg for us Developers Like some Sensu-bean bag flying from somewhere hitting someone with 1 dmg

 

[hleV]

And i told you before, if you want to complain about them being displayed, then go ingame and find the players who were so against us removing them and complain to them. End of story. It was the communitys wish to have them shown, it was a huge debate round the notion that they are non relevant information, and in the end we decided to do what the community wanted.

They're irrelevant in the sense that they don't affect your score/how you stack against others in the scoreboard. They're relevant enough (to the "community" you speak of) to be there, though. And it's affected by luck. Why not reduce this factor?

And no you make misstakes, they cost you, little by little untill you respawn. Its simple, its direct and its fair for everyone, not just one group.

Introduction of a healing system won't change that, unless you have some very unfair and overpowered healing system in mind. A healing system in my mind would be something like if you have very low HP, you may do something to get your HP back up to like 5% so you wouldn't be a one-shot kill. So noobs will not get lucky kills while non-noobs won't have too much trouble draining those 5% in one go. But I guess this discussion fails due to the fact that people have particular healing systems premade in their minds instead of grasping the idea of ability to survive more hits than your initial HP would suggest. WHICH STILL DOESN'T AFFECT THE PRIMARY SCORE WHICH IS POWERLEVEL.

Anyway, puma is a troll and Ryo has proven to have no common sense (there is no place for luck in a skill-based game and winning via luck is not fair towards your enemy, that should be common knowledge), so it's you and me.

 

[Grega]

But there is no such healing system i can think of that would work.

Pasive healing is just a run and hide thing. And running is way to easy in this game because of the type of gameplay.

Pickups also dont work because of the running issue.

And the whole killstreak thing is just outright unfair. I can not think of any healing system that i have encountered in games thus far that would work well with ESFs gameplay mechanics.

They dont really matter that much to the community. The main reason given was to track score easier for duels. As in first to 10 is easier to keep track of than first to X number of points that are based on how mkuch PL you gained since the start. A logistics thing to make dueling easier.

I feel like im going in circles really as i have stated all this before time and time again >.<

Also noobs may not be bad players. Newbs are bad players as they are new, but even then they might not be casuals. In games like UT you have weapons that can 1 hit kill you or 2 hit kill you. ESF doesnt have that, so you cant draw in those comparrisons.

 

[hleV]

So if it's only a matter of you not being able to think up a fair healing system and not my idea being bad you should've just said so. You're not going in circles, you said something new.

You have below 5HP. Your every next successful attack restores 1HP until you have 5HP. (Replace 5HP with whatever amount that lets you survive a single melee attack from someone with less PL). This doesn't punish anyone. Lucky hits are still rewarded, but don't mean defeat. It's available for anyone, however just like with literally any other feature, pros will have an easier time using it due to skill. For a skill-based game this seems like a fair system that allows one to survive longer but is not abusable because it's a max of 5HP.

Let me know if (and why) this won't do and I may think of something else.